Some Breaking News on the Human Terrain System: Death Threats Against Female Colleagues

Thanks to John Stanton for forwarding an advance copy of his latest article moments ago. This is very alarming news about how the lives of female Human Terrain team members are put at risk by those who are putatively on the same side as them. It makes for very grim reading.

John Stanton’s earlier articles on the Human Terrain System are also available here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.

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Death Threat Tarnishes US Army Human Terrain System

Mata La Vaca: Kill the Cow

by John Stanton

Thursday, 26 February, 2009

Dr. Marilyn Dudley-Flores

Dr. Marilyn Dudley-Flores

Sources indicate that Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey of (D‐California) awaits the results of an investigative report by the US Army 101st Airborne Command, stationed at Bagram AB in Afghanistan, into allegations of a death threat made against Dr. [Marilyn] Dudley‐Flores — a former senior female Human Terrain Team (HTT) member deployed to Bagram — by an active duty lieutenant in collusion with the HTT leader. The death threat was written on a white board and was included in a “to do” list. It read, according to sources, “Mata La Vaca” which translates into “Kill The Cow.” Immediately after that incident, other female members of the HTT began to arm themselves apparently because they feared that male members of the HTT, along with a few in the 101st Airborne, were out to get them.

Photo of the whiteboard, courtesy

Photo of the whiteboard, courtesy

The death threat was the culmination of an effort, say sources, to malign Dudley‐Flores’ credibility with fellow HTT members and the 101st Airborne, and put the women in their place. Sources allege that through the months of November and December 2008, Flores‐Dudley and other HTT female members were deliberately put in harm’s way by Milan Sturgis [see photo below] — a former HTT leader ‐‐ who sent Flores‐Dudley and female HTT members in known hot areas (like Qarabagh) where the Taliban was active, and, in one instance, knowingly had them wait for seven hours on a remote airstrip for a airlift back to Bagram, AB. Sturgis was nearly terminated for, copying wholesale, and changing the facts in a report authored by another HTS member. And, according to sources, Sturgis had mental health issues.

Rev. Milan Sturgis

Rev. Milan Sturgis

Further, the active duty lieutenant charged with protecting Dudley‐Flores and female teammates acted with discredit by fleeing and not covering Dudley‐Flores when she was fired upon (fire incident) and; in another incident, leaving his sidearm and other arms in a Humvee while a female HTT member was inside a structure interviewing Afghans who, it was later found out, were Taliban seeking intelligence.

Rat Fucking Campaign

Sturgis and the first lieutenant sought to falsify the after action report (AAR) on the fire incident and, it is alleged — according to sources — that Sturgis and the first lieutenant instructed Dudley‐Flores to meet them alone in an isolated part of a building, apparently, to convince her to change her mind about what the AAR should look like. According to sources, fearing for her safety, Dudley‐Flores went up the chain of command at Bagram in an attempt to avoid the meeting. It was at this point in late December 2008 that the females — some on the advice of spouses and partners — started to arm themselves.

Dudley‐Flores and fellow HTT female members were also subjected to sexual harassment and abuse by Milan Sturgis and his cohorts. Sources say that Sturgis, in collusion with other HTT members (male) and individuals in the 101st Airborne led a “rat fucking campaign” against Dudley-Flores. That campaign played on the fact that, according to sources, Dudley-Flores was overweight. The “rat fuckers” according to sources claimed that Dudley‐Flores was unable to buckle her body armor or even get in and out of a Humvee. Further, because of her weight, Dudley‐Flores was nicknamed by male HTT members and some in the 101st Airborne as “The Cow”. In one instance, a picture of a 500 pound stripper on four knees with a midget on top was placed on her desk.

Dudley‐Flores was called the Chief Cow by male HTT teammates and, according to sources, phrases like, “The HTT needs more cow bells,” appeared on homemade posters around the HTT office. Dudley‐Flores was also accused, falsely according to sources, of telling 101st Airborne officers (up to 20) that she was “the first infantry woman in the US Army.” In late December 2008/early January 2009, Dudley‐Flores was terminated for non‐performance.

Human Terrain analysts referred to as cows, photo courtesy of

Human Terrain analysts referred to as cows, photo courtesy of

Photo of the "stripper" image, courtesy

Photo of the "stripper" image, courtesy

Former US Army National Guard Lieutenant Dudley‐Flores was the first certified woman combat mountaineer in the Alaska’s US Army National Guard and has hundreds of hours of smal arms training. She also worked in Pakistan during the USSR’s occupation of Afghanistan helping refugees.

While she was at the University of South Carolina, she and her colleagues developed a rudimentary social networking/human terrain mapping‐type program to assist victims of the war in Kuwait. That program, the Victim Assessment Database, was to be used in Kuwait after the first Gulf War but the US government showed no interest.

Sources claim that HTS management knew of many of these activities targeted at Dudley‐Flores and did not act. In July 2007, in a briefing designed for LTG John Kimmons (, HTS management knew it had personnel and organizational problems. Those apparently were ignored in favor of marketing the “concept”. Once again, oversight of HTS program has been negligent resulting in the many problems already documented in past articles. [For a copy of the briefing to LTG Kimmons, contact]

In the end, Congresswomen Woolsey’s staff had her pulled out of Afghanistan because they feared for her life.

John Stanton is a Virginia based writer specializing in political and national security matters. Reach him at


External Links:

  • Dr. Marilyn Dudley-Flores: Who I Am
  • Profile of Milan Sturgis (“Priest leads a full life,” The Fredericksburg Free Lance-Star, 14 May 2007): “the priest with Serbian roots finds himself leading a Greek Orthodox church in Spotsylvania County, teaching in Boston and running an energy consulting company in Alexandria….Sturgis began his priesthood in Morgantown, Pa., in the 1980s….then he decided to become a chaplain, joining the Navy, which meant he could be assigned to any of the sea services. He ministered to the Marine Corps….Sturgis went to work for a State Department office devoted to religious freedom in the late ’90s, when the Balkans erupted in conflict….He runs Blue Oceans Strategies LLC, an energy consulting group that works with international natural gas and oil companies.”
  • Rev. Dr. Milan Sturgis (News from the National Council of Churches): “A Serbian Orthodox priest and former U.S. foreign service officer in the Balkans, Dr. Milan Sturgis….related many of his experiences in Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo including the loss of cousins, aunts and uncles “who were slaughtered.”
  • Milan Sturgis: “Political Advisor, OSCE [Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe], Belgrade, US Department of State” (2004)
  • Milan Sturgis: State Department special advisor on democracy issues in post-conflict states

Update #1: Also, see “addenda” below.

Update #2: photos added, thanks to

See also this intimidation on base, against speaking to John Stanton:

We know who you are...traitor. Photo courtesy of

We know who you are...traitor. Photo courtesy of


207 thoughts on “Some Breaking News on the Human Terrain System: Death Threats Against Female Colleagues

  1. Maximilian Forte

    My own select extracts from the piece, for future ease of reference:

    * “put the women in their place”
    * “through the months of November and December 2008, Flores‐Dudley and other HTT female members were deliberately put in harm’s way” — that is the same period in which Paula Loyd was killed. Was she set up to be exposed to harm?
    * “sent Flores‐Dudley and female HTT members in known hot areas (like Qarabagh) where the Taliban was active”
    * “fleeing and not covering Dudley‐Flores when she was fired upon (fire incident) and; in another incident, leaving his sidearm and other arms in a Humvee while a female HTT member was inside a structure interviewing Afghans who, it was later found out, were Taliban seeking intelligence” — Had she been killed, would she have been dutifully turned into another “hero” who died at the hands of the evil, brown Taliban “animals”?

  2. Disgusted in VA

    You know what is sad about all of this is that it is true. A friend of mine is currently one of the female team members who had to endure this kind of sexual harrassment while trying to be a productive team member and contributor in the completion of the mission. The other sad thing about all of this is Milan Sturgis is a ordained minister which makes it all the more disgusting and Steve Fondacaro received daily emails telling him this was going on long before Sturgis was pulled out. The best thing for this program is to cut it from the budget!

  3. Mars Ultor

    Maximilian Forte asks whether Paula Loyd was set up to be exposed to harm. Indeed, was she assassinated? Was Don Ayala assigned to play the role of Jack Ruby?

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Sorry, I should not joke, the situations and experiences described in the article are really grave, and I understand that much worse may be known soon. The new twist added here is that this is not a “he said, she said” piece, but a Congresswoman is named and was involved in learning about this for herself. I don’t think that Rep. Woolsey would answer any questions from me, as a non-American citizen, but perhaps others who might have questions about this news should contact her for verification or additional information, or to add their voices to protests against this program.

      2. Maximilian Forte

        Thanks for that link Marc, it was very interesting on numerous counts. First, Marilyn Dudley-Flores does not fit into the neat little pigeon-hole of a war-mongering, right-wing, anti-progressive type, so it was interesting to read her views on international issues just from that standpoint. As time passes, and I learn more about different people who have joined HTS, I am seeing a far greater diversity of perspectives, motivations, principles, goals, etc., than I imagined when I began to debate these issues on this blog starting over a year ago. So it has been good to realize the more complex array of profiles that come into play with HTS. Obviously, on certain basic principles, I will always disagree with their joining a war effort, and some of them know that and are still willing to communicate.

        Second, you mention ties, and I see those on the page you directly linked to. I am sure that this is one way that Woolsey knew about Dudley-Flores’ situation to begin with. Going to your congressional representative when all else fails is apparently something that a lot of people do in the U.S..

        Third, having glimpsed a person who is serious, mature, and with a lot of experience, I am even more sorry to hear of the kind of abuse that she is said to have suffered, as related by John. She must have felt grievously humiliated by individuals who come across in John’s article as dangerous hooligans who apparently take advantage of having uniforms and a gun to live out their sick fantasies.

        Yes, I realize as RYP says above below, that we do not have all sides of the story. My comments are entirely conditional upon the article above being largely correct. If it turns out not to be, or to be much more complicated, then of course anyone reading these comments in the future can safely assume that I would revise the opinions expressed above.

  4. RYP


    They takeaway I get from many of these stories and my actual experience is that the “human terrain” program has extraordinary internal and cultural dissonance due to the effects of clashing cultures. My experience was that each individual had their own clear sense of purpose but when combined with others felt frustrated, unappreciated or stymied. Fondacaro’s term for the many trips he takes to introduce the teams is “socializing”. Yes there are a number of ex military social scientists but between the academics, citizen soldiers, professional soldiers, terps and locals…its..uh interesting.

    I would suggest that we ask congress for $100 to $300 to create a “Human Terrain Study Group” that would study the HTS system to reduce conflict, identify tribal alliances, provide intelligence on informers and the most radical and work to reduce violent actors. Then after a few years (OK so it might cost $500 million with post bailout money) we will have a peace plan and an exit strategy to deal with this new insurgent group. :)))

    But seriously.. There have been a number of employees and ex employees who frustrated by the inability to resolve issues internally have turned to outside entities to air their dirty laundry. It began when they pulled the clearance from a young lady for making a humorous comment about siding with Iran if they went to war and it continues with not just this story but the far too vitriolic backlash against established players. There was much tension inside the team I was with and no outlet for resoluion. The very purpose of the teams is to identify opportunities to reduce “kinetic” events but yet they seem to be going “kinetic” on each other and with the media.

    I would also like to a comment that I don’t know Dr Sturgis but I know friends of his and I think John was a little harsh considering we don’t get to hear Sturgis (or program officials) provide their view of charges or insinuations. When you say “sources say Sturgis had mental health issues” you might as well have said “anonymous sources say everything I say in this article is true”.
    John did you contact Milan or anyone to get the “other side” of the story?



  5. John Stanton


    Er, ah, can you name the friends (sources of support) of Sturgis you know so we can verify if its true that you really know them?

    Actually the problems in the HTS program began long before the Zenia Helbig incident.

    I ‘m grateful for the condescending and instructional tone of your email and will endeavor to become a qualified he said, she said “journalist”

    RYP you are very late to the HTS discussion, this being session #14. Early on, on Max’s blog, and elsewhere, we explored the source issue again and again and again and again. I’ll say this one last time which many still don’t understand: 33 sources have requested in writing and on the telephone that their names/contact information remain a close-hold. I have and will continue to honor those requests. I mean, should I dump all their information out into the Web? Not write or report? Find a “real” journalist?

    Since the 4th or 5th piece I’ve not heard anything from official HTS management. In fact, about mid-way through this effort, HTS deleted contact names from its website as personnel left and were not replaced–to my knowledge. PAO TRADOC and I have been in touch on and off since this effort began.

    So what is the other side of the story? The October 2008 DAMO brief says all is well, the concept has been proven and let’s move it into the other COCOM’s.

    I sense, RYP, that you are being delicate in order to walk a middle line between your need to keep HTS management happy (future gigs overseas via them) and your surprise at the madness you encountered in the program. As you advised me, so I will advise you. Consider the advice of Mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid: “Left side good, right side good. Middle? Squashed like grape!”

    I actually having nothing against Fondacaro and McFate. They’ve earned my respect. They are a force and that they have been able to keep HTS going in the face of the storm is testimony to their considerable marketing skills here inside the DC Beltway. But they focused way too much on that effort at the expense of organization and people. As such, as leaders, they are responsible for what goes on under their watch. And it is not pretty.

    I also respect you, RYP. Your writing is entertaining and often informative. And I understand too that you are a businessman so you must exercise caution with your many contacts that are instrumental in getting you out into the field.

    Both sides in this saga will have their voices heard. Investigations, court cases, Ayala’s sentencing, are all on the way. Better pick a side. heh, heh, heh

  6. marctyrrell

    No worries, Max. I noted the pre-existing relationship and, from how I read that site, that relationship appeared to be much more than that of a constituent and Congresswoman.

    John, we need to have a beer so I can explain the rule of the excluded third to you (GRIN). More seriously, I believe that most people involved in this debate have different foci – sides if you will. I just had my copy of Gonzalez’s American Counterinsurgency: Human Science and the Human Terrain delivered (Max reviewed it earlier I believe) and I’m just starting to read it. That’s another “side” in the entire debate.

    Honestly, I perceive the HTS as a dust mote dropped into a supercooled liquid; it has acted as a catalyst to crystallize an entire series of debates – political, military, Anthropology, etc, all of which get rolled up into a large free-for-all.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Yes, Dudley-Flores is also a political supporter of Woolsey. When one says it is “much more” than a relationship between a constituent and a Congresswoman, however, it can sound a little sinister and conspiratorial. I think constituents can have political ties to their representatives, and this is also pretty normal. Had she not had such ties, perhaps her representative might have been slower to act, or might not have paid as much attention, I really don’t know, but either way what matters is that she was taken out of danger. By the way, only a fraction of the report needs to be true for me to make this point.

      1. Marc Tyrrell

        The “much more” comment came from the information on that site; to whit, the heading of Sonoma County Democratic Central Committee. Generally, and this is based on too many years of being involved in politics (wry grin), constituents get a “nice to see you, we’ll think about it” reaction, while political supporters with clout get a “what do you need” reaction.

      2. Mars Ultor

        When you say “generally,” you’re already on shaky intellectual ground. “Generally,” F=ma, Newtonian mechanics. But if you’re trying to describe a relativistic system and you don’t understand that, you’ve just blown it.

        I can tell you about Lynn Woolsey. We are neighbors in a small town where she was once the mayor, and the only “clout” I have with her is that I take the opportunity to visit her during her in-district “office hours,” and what I say makes sense to her. I cannot imagine a more accessible member of Congress. And, Lynn won’t sit there, nod her head, and blow you off. I’ve seen her disagree with constituents in public. Nevertheless, last year I talked to her about an issue on which she had a 15-year record of voting “no.” A week or so later, Lynn voted “yes” in committee and again on the House floor. Lynn listens.

        Dr. Dudley-Flores doesn’t need any more “clout” with Lynn than that.

      3. marctyrrell

        Hi Mars,

        The term “generally” also applies when talking about a class of relationships (grin), which was how I was using it. Like all deductive systems, it’s on shaky grounds when it comes to specific cases, so it’s good to hear from someone who actually knows Rep Woolsey. Thanks for the information on her – it changes how I see her.

    2. Maximilian Forte

      I forgot to ask this: perhaps you should specify what you think has been excluded, and then we can ask if he deliberately sought to exclude it, or if he reported information that had been handed to him and therefore had little choice but to present what he had. The “facts” themselves, whatever they may be, are never ambiguous; only our interpretations are.

  7. Mars Ultor

    I’ll come straight out and advertise the following as a rumor followed by a conspiracy theory.

    First, the rumor: Dr. Dudley-Flores was “scheduled for termination” while she was in HTS training in Leavenworth last summer (I don’t know who they would have gotten to do the terminating… Schwarzenegger has his hands full in Kaleeforneeya). Who would be in a position to know this? It sounds like the source of this rumor is inside of Building 48 (HTS management).

    If the rumor is true, why was she “scheduled for termination?” And, why was she not in fact terminated at that time?

    It is a fact that in the early 1980s, years before “Charlie Wilson’s War,” Dr. Dudley-Flores worked with Dr. Louis Dupree, who was the foremost expert on Afghanistan of his time, in an effective campaign of citizens’ public diplomacy to mobilize US government resources to airlift to a safe haven a thousand Afghan men, women, and children who had walked over the Hindu Kush into Pakistan to escape the Soviet invasion.

    It is a fact, that during training last summer, the HTS program sent Dr. Dudley-Flores to the University of Nebraska in Omaha for three weeks for an intensive immersion training course in the Dari language, as well as in the culture and geography of Afghanistan.

    It is a fact, that subsequent to her return to Leavenworth, the HTS program slated Dr. Dudley-Flores to deploy to the Human Terrain Analysis Team (HTAT) at Camp Liberty, near Baghdad. Not only did this decision fail to make the best use of her past experience with Afghanistan and her association with Dr. Dupree, it also made her training in Omaha a total waste of taxpayers’ money. Naturally, Dr. Dudley-Flores questioned this decision, and it was reversed; she was assigned to Bagram Air Base.

    Building 48 might like to claim that it had no idea how bad the HTAT (division level) was at Bagram. They knew. It is a fact, that a few months before Dr. Dudley-Flores arrived there in Novermber 2008, team leader Rev. Dr. Milan Sturgis had plagiarized a report by a member of the Human Terrain Team (HTT, brigade level) at Bagram. The HTS program ought to have fired Sturgis for that. As it was, Sturgis kept his job, to the detriment of the HTAT’s mission. HTTs around Afghanistan stopped sending reports to the Bagram HTAT; in other words, brigade-level information stopped flowing to the division level.

    Following the Sturgis plagiarism scandal, HTS management decided to reverse its decision regarding Dr. Dudley-Flores and send her to Bagram instead of Baghdad.

    Now, the HTS management is not one to take kindly to its decisions being questioned. It sent Dr. Dudley-Flores to Bagram knowing full well that it had a problem there. As the situation deteriorated in the course of the next two months, not only Dr. Dudley-Flores, but other HTAT members as well, reported back to Ft. Leavenworth, repeatedly pleading for HTS management to take action. The dirty tricks, “ratfucking” as John Stanton calls it, was so effective that it engineered the termination of her contract even though HTS management had never authorized her termination! Although the HTS program office directed the contractor to rescind her termination, why were the participants in this “ratfucking” not called to account?

    It is a fact that when Dr. Dudley-Flores told the HTS program office about the death threat against her, it took absolutely no action. She displayed incredible patience and courage in waiting five full days before asking Representative Lynn Woolsey to intervene. In fact, it is my understanding that Dr. Dudley Flores received no communication of any kind from Building 48 until Woolsey’s office intervened. They went dark on her.

    Now that Building 48 has fired Dr. Dudley-Flores, where is Milan Sturgis? He got the “golden handshake.” He is now working for a Beltway bandit with close ties to Dr. Montgomery McFate-Sapone.

    Why was Dr. Dudley-Flores sent to a known dysfunctional HTAT? Why was the deteriorating situation at Bagram repeatedly ignored? Why did her report of the death threat against her fall on deaf ears?

    Conspiracy theory: the “ratfucking” against Dr. Dudley-Flores was not confined to HTAT members at Bagram Air Base; rather, it had the tacit acquiescence, it not the active instigation, of HTS management. If true, that constitutes sabotage of the military mission, and indeed, treason in time of war.

  8. Disgusted in VA

    My very good friend was on the team that “REV” Sturgis was on and trust me, the information of what occurred in John’s article is “all true”. I heard about every one of the incidents involving his bullying of the female team members and the constant sexual harrassment. I have no idea of whether he has mental issues or not and personally I don’t care whether or not he is crazy or not, other male members of that team, one in particular being an Army officer LT were involved in conduct that is very unbecoming a military officer or a man who is supposed to be a man of god…

  9. John Stanton

    Read 2x Dr. G’s work. An excellent history–can’t keep pace w/new HTS developments.

    I found fascinating that Human Terrain was first mentioned in the US House Committee on Un-American Activities referring to USA Urban revolts and the Black Panthers,

    I stick with my view that this concept has been used again and again, I’m not surprised anymore that those who claim to be in the know are not close.

    Our species is not that smart.

  10. John Stanton

    Sorry, Max, about the last convoluted comment.

    My point was that, once again, history shows how old this effort is.

  11. Maximilian Forte

    Hi John,

    I think Roberto Gonzalez has also argued that the roots of HTS lie in urban policing, the same idea as you expressed above.

    John, have you been reading the comments from some people posting above? They are even more detailed and damning than what you wrote, and I think that kind of detail does not come from someone who just happened to be a passer by, someone standing outside an office door for a few minutes and accidentally overhearing a conversation.

    In my lowly opinion, this is in fact the most serious news to have ever come out about HTS, even if only a small part of it is true. HTS management has gone silent on some reports, except in cases such as Pelton’s (and even then it was about fairly petty issues, to us non-military people, such as bringing alcohol on a base that it already had it, or sharing a drink with an officer who should have known better) — but in this case, any further silence must be taken as an indictment. How this program is continued, “nationalized” or not, is really quite beyond me at this point.

    Also, why is this not “breaking news” everywhere, in the mainstream media? They went wild over the Tailhook Scandal, but they ignore something as severe as this (at least for now). Where are all the “milbloggers” now, and why are they silent on this? Is it that after months of some American commentators defecating on Afghan men, on Afghan “culture,” about the treatment of women, about what “animals” they are, they cannot wrap their minds around their own side’s misogyny? Would they rather scapegoat Pelton and Stanton as the sources of “treason” while ignoring how HTS is undone from inside? In terms of questions, these together are merely a small tip of the iceberg.

  12. Maximilian Forte


    For those who might find this interesting, if anything because it presents some different sides to this story (not necessarily more truthful, nor less truthful, we cannot know for certain), this is part of a transcript of an exchange between Old Blue and someone in a live chat with him from Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan:

    the woman in question, Dr. Dudley-Flores, was in fact the victim of sexual harrassment, but her story about a death threat and being threatened with violence is an outright lie the other female members of HTAT are considering suing her for libel because she lied about them and about LTC Rotzoll, in an epic profanity-laden 142 page three volume sworn statement to Congress the bit about her having training in small arms and being a commissioned lieutenant is a lie she claims she was commissioned as a 2LT 25 years ago but it got lost in the mail, but by now she would be the equivalent of an LTC so she should have all the “rank privileges” of an LTC she said this to an LTC in the CJTF-101 JOC, and soon after they — and not some Congresswoman — cancelled her country clearance and, despite HTS (i.e. Montgomery McFate) trying to send her back in-theater, the 101st is saying they won’t tolerate her presence at Bagram anyway, so that’s an enormous clusterfuck that can be placed squarely at the feet of Fondacaro and McFate for ignoring repeated staff complaints about both Sturgis and Dudley-Flores (Dudley-Flores, who demands people call her “stryker” because her 28-page resume claims she invented the Stryker Brigade, was originally slated to go to Iraq because everyone in her training cycle refused to deploye with her… management had her wait three weeks then sent her to Afghanistan anyway).


    (Please keep in mind that it is a part of a larger conversation to which we are not privy, and therefore we cannot know any of the context from which this was extracted.)

    Personally, I find it difficult to believe that someone who presents herself the way Dr. Dudley-Flores does, would invent profanities and submit them directly to Congressional representatives as part of a sworn statement. That is a very serious charge. However, it also reveals something we did not know until now: the fact that Congressional hearings or a Congressional investigation is taking place. Some of the other statements in the passage above tend to confirm part of what Stanton wrote, as well as still blaming McFate and Fondacaro, but arriving at that blame from a different angle.

    In another statement sent to Old Blue via live chat from Bagram, the writer says this about John Stanton:

    Sent at 1:08 AM on Saturday
    XXXXXXX: no, he does that
    all of Stanton’s other articles are very obviously cut and pasted directly from emails (even the language is unchanged, and has wild swings of tone and voice)
    he’s so bad at concealing his sources that every time he writes something we know exactly who leaked it so people have begun getting fired for it… which results in more “sources say” articles from him about how the people are so very persecuted


    Are people really being fired on the basis of, “we think you wrote this because it kinda sounds like you”? It would seem that the person being fired would then have a basis for wrongful termination. It would seem more likely that their communications were subject to surveillance, and their emails were intercepted — which might in fact be legal if they were writing overseas from a military base in Afghanistan. In that case, it is not Stanton’s allegedly careless doing, but the possible carelessness of those who write to him.

    If the allegation had been true, this would help to reinforce my argument in favour of “fictionalization” — I cannot get into that right here (most anthropologists would know what I am referring to already) — and I am afraid that some readers will mistakenly think this is about fabricating, falsifying, or “making shit up”. It is not. It is simply an avoidance of the positivist, futile attempt at directly transcribing reality, from what is the partial, selective standpoint of the observer in the first place. Fictionalization also allows one to write about some very difficult situations without implicating anyone in particular, without creating an audit trail and compromising the confidentiality of informant communications.

    Old Blue also alleges, on what is a public forum, that John Stanton’s quotes got an insider with HTS fired: “Ask Stanton about Lisa Verdon feeding him info from inside HTS for his Pravda articles. Word is his hard-on for HTS stems from her firing”. I personally am not familiar with the name Lisa Verdon, but as someone else on that forum cautioned Old Blue:

    “Word is…”

    stunning fact checking….almost as good as ‘well, everybody knows’

    1. A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth.
    2. Unverified information received from another; hearsay.

    1. Old Blue

      I would say that stunning fact checking would be applicable to Stanton’s taking nothing but the word of a disgruntled former employee as well.

    2. NV

      I have been watching, reading about, researching, and talking to insiders about HTS. From what I know and what I am seeing here:

      1. HTS personnel undergo copious amounts of training, including that which is required by the DOD to include sexual harassment training. Had actual harassment taken place, Ms. Dudley-Flores would have been perfectly capable of pressing a lawsuit.
      2. Because employees are hired by BAE and not HTS, HTS is not able to fire BAE employees. BAE failed to protect Ms. Dudley-Flores. However, instead of investigating the rabbit-hole and getting to the root of management issues and contracting issues, HTS is automatically blamed.
      3. HTS trainees are not privy to every decision management makes. This is no different than any other corporation or large business. However, trainees spend much time focusing on rumor-mongering and issue-guessing than paying attention to training, thus potentially resulting in issues down range.
      4. Each situation down range is different, so it is impossible to train 100% effectively for each situation while in a classroom. Therefore, rumors, info leaks, and aired dirty laundry wind up creating inflated issues within the training rooms.
      5. OPSEC is incredibly important. It is readily apparent that Ms. Dudley-Flores violated OPSEC, which frankly, she should have been fired for. Any correspondence on military computers, networks/internet, and webmail are monitored and those who use these terminals are aware of that fact. It is in their IA training and they sign off on and acknowledge this fact. Therefore, Ms. Dudley-Flores has little leg to stand on regarding the violation of OPSEC. No one should be emailing team info, locations, missions, or dynamics to anyone outside of secured networks or to anyone who will publicly publish this information. Therefore, anyone who “leaked” info to Mr. Stanton, particularly when it violates OPSEC and/or the rules and regulations for internet use as established by BAE are subject to termination or reprimand according to the rules and regulations of BAE and/or the authority or recommendation of the client i.e. the brigade or unit to which that person is assigned.
      6. If Ms. Dudley-Flores was reassigned from Baghdad to Bagram according not only to her request and her experience, even though the team was troubled, wouldn’t that show that HTS thought that with her experience and education that she would have been able to assist a “troubled team” and not that HTS was intentionally placing her into a bad situation? Since she is allegedly the first infantry woman?
      7. The job description as clearly stated by BAE showed that Ms Dudley-Flores was outside the 40% BMI required by the US Army. Her weight issues and inability to properly put on her equipment would have placed her and her team mates, as well as the military personnel who accompanied her into the field into danger. Why did Ms. D-F think that this was professionally responsible, and why did she not pull herself from training or the program? Why did she think it was acceptable to continue fully knowing she would not be able to reach a 40% BMI goal? Why has no one put the responsibility on her, where it belongs?
      8. HTS is under TRADOC, as listed on their announcements. Therefore, as an Army program, they are under the authority of TRADOC command, which is very likely the reason why no comments or statements have been made available. HTS management may not be responsible for this issue at all and Mr. Stanton should know this. TRADOC should be asked for the response to the inquiry.
      9. The HTS program is an Army program. Army protocol states no personal email addresses may be used on military hosted websites. Pulling names and emails from their website therefore is not nefarious, but likely an issued order by the Army. Also, the site has not changed in a while, so it may be in flux. Mr. Stanton makes simple issues seem like some covert evil practice on HTS’s behalf, when in fact logical and rational explanations may be reality.
      10. Mr Stanton participates in “indymedia” which is not fact checked and is often radically erroneous. Those who choose to view him as a factual and honest “journalist” may be led astray.

  13. Pingback: Chapomatic » Bill and Bob Get In A Scuffle

  14. Disgusted in VA

    Dudley-Flores lost her job at Bagram mainly because she doesn’t know how to keep her mouth shut! Instead of just stating the facts, she offers way too much information that has absolutely nothing to do with the facts. I know she was the victim of sexual harrassment but some of the other episodes of her constantly and continuously talking to anyone who would listen is what got her terminated. It’s a shame with all that education, one still doesn’t have the good sense to know when to shut the hell up!

    1. Mars Ultor

      Well, obviously women should be harassed and threatened and shut the hell up! What was Dudley-Flores thinking?

    2. Maximilian Forte

      This does sound different from your previous messages above. Can a person really be terminated for talking to anyone who would listen when she was in serious trouble? It seems like double injustice, and like blaming the victim.

  15. Mars Ultor

    I just saw this on the “Black Flag Cafe” :

    the woman in question, Dr. Dudley-Flores, was in fact the victim of sexual harrassment, but her story about a death threat and being threatened with violence is an outright lie the other female members of HTAT are considering suing her for libel because she lied about them and about LTC Rotzoll, in an epic profanity-laden 142 page three volume sworn statement to Congress the bit about her having training in small arms and being a commissioned lieutenant is a lie she claims she was commissioned as a 2LT 25 years ago but it got lost in the mail, but by now she would be the equivalent of an LTC so she should have all the “rank privileges” of an LTC she said this to an LTC in the CJTF-101 JOC, and soon after they — and not some Congresswoman — cancelled her country clearance and, despite HTS (i.e. Montgomery McFate) trying to send her back in-theater, the 101st is saying they won’t tolerate her presence at Bagram anyway, so that’s an enormous clusterfuck that can be placed squarely at the feet of Fondacaro and McFate for ignoring repeated staff complaints about both Sturgis and Dudley-Flores (Dudley-Flores, who demands people call her “stryker” because her 28-page resume claims she invented the Stryker Brigade, was originally slated to go to Iraq because everyone in her training cycle refused to deploye with her… management had her wait three weeks then sent her to Afghanistan anyway)

    Well, I suppose we ought to take someone’s online chat as gospel. Sounds like sole-source intel to me… find the one guy who will tell you what you want to hear. Why not take a look at what Dudley-Flores says about herself online rather than take some “chat” as your best source regarding what she allegedly said? Do some G2:

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Fantastic Mars, I had also added that same quote as an addendum to Stanton’s story above.

      What was really amazing was the site to which the link goes, and the photographs. Thanks very much for sharing this, much needed.

    2. Hank

      Profanity? In the ARMY? Deary me! I hope the Navy doesn’t find out about this. What might they think of us?

  16. RYP

    “I just saw this on the “Black Flag Cafe” ”

    A very sloppily attributed link by an anonymous milblogger who calls himself Old Blue to something he posted from somewhere else unrelated to the Black Flag Cafe

    “Dude, that’s straight of of chat, right now, from Bagram. Now, what have you got that’s that fresh?”

    I don’t have a dog in this fight.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Old Blue says that some of us (i.e., me) like a story if it says what we want to hear. I am sure that is at least partly true of me. However, he doesn’t seem to think that it even partly true of him, so he was ready to bury Stanton just on that bit of chat, and the fact that he sees Stanton as V.I. Lenin and therefore a little on the evil side.

  17. MadAxe

    Sturgis, a priest, accused of sexual harassment? THAT’S UNHEARD OF!
    I had to get in another jab at priests. Ironic that I was just reading on Savage Minds a post where one person compares ethical anthropologists to a priesthood! No thanks, priests are way too vicious and unethical.

    So the US sends in a Serbian Orthodox priest, with a background in the Balkan Wars, to serve in counterinsurgency against the Taliban? That is some nice thinking there, real cultural sensitive like. He would have been a great catch for the Taliban.

    1. Mars Ultor

      Sources say that the Serbian Orthodox priest regards Muslims such as Albanians as “farm animals.” Nice. Milan Sturgis is the kind of priest only Sloboban Milosevic, Radovan Karadzic, and Ratko Mladic could love. Oh, and as to his role as “senior social scientist” at Bagram, sources also say that on the report that he plagiarized, he also changed some of the data and conclusions. Perfect. One can only imagine how he might have subverted the military mission and endangered personnel by feeding the 101st Airborne his warped perspective of Islam. They say in the Serbian Orthodox Church, “A little genocide is good for the soul.” That’s what we get for sending a religious kook to advise us in a war against other religious kooks.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        I had not taken more than passing note of this Serbian background, which is really my failing since in some of the very links I provided it seems clear that Sturgis has had a lot to say about personal loss due to the wars that broke up Yugoslavia. I therefore don’t think it is a stretch to suggest that this could have conditioned his thinking about Muslims, and Mars, what you say above, makes the point even more dramatically.

  18. RYP

    I looked at Dudley Flores page and her carefully gathered evidence and I am not getting it. We all need more cow bell and funny stripper photos but the gossip I picked up inside the HTS was more along the lines of HTS members spying for a hostile government, being incompetent, falsifying experience etc etc. Real things that affect performance for taxpayer money. Although I will give Stanton credit for using his little birds inside the HTS to bring out problems, but his anonymous sources saying that I was an intel agent made me scratch my head when reviewing his other anonymous sources. Stanton’s agenda is clear and he has been right on the money before but wigga please, have some standards of reporting…check your facts. . Sames goes for any other unsourced allegation that is designed to lower some one’s opinion of someone. State your damn source and double check it or its just maliciousl gossip.

    Its clear that Dudley Flores should have been in Afghanistan due to her background with Dupree and I think its clear she is not happy about her treatment.

    The only official element seems to be her statement and a web page which documents “facts” to support her case. But that ain’t no midget on that stripper and an unattributed anonymous gossip by an anonymous gossiper on my forum is not proof of anything.

    I wish her successful resolution and I have seen cognitive dissonance up close at the HTAT program…but if she is an academic she should know the difference between facts and RUMINT

  19. Mars Ultor

    A fine one to pontificate on “the difference between facts and RUMINT,” RYP does not scruple to repeat “the gossip I picked up inside the HTS.” Why is his gossip source better than anyone else’s?

    Why are people fixating on whether the rider is or is not a midget? Are milbloggers really that cognitively challenged that they can’t even perceive the larger issues, much less understand them? Obviously not, when the response to Max Forte is, “You could bore a stoat to death at a hundred paces.” If it’s not a three-word phrase tattooed in a woman’s erogenous zone, it’s beyond comprehension.

    Even when presented with evidence, they dismiss it. Old Blue writes, “Never trust a woman wearing an Infantry blue cord. A woman who will lie right on her uniform is bound to lie about anything.” My guess is that Old Blue calls himself that because he’s been cyanotic ever since the oxygen got cut off to his brain. What is the point of presenting evidence in the face of such blatant and despicable misogyny? It is only necessary to take a look at the Black Flag Cafe site, and see the salacious photos of women posted there, to deduce under what circumstances such men experience their deepest and most penetrating thoughts. Sexual reproduction has been around for several billion years, yet these guys seem only barely capable of it, else why would it consume so much of their energies?

  20. RYP


    You take my comments out of context. I never officially reported nor do I traffic in the rumor trade. In fact, (I love it when people say that) I was making a point that a trained information gatherer and academic using ambiguous sources when shoring up her own case.

    If you care to reboot. The entire reason I post here is that I support critical thought, fact gathering and scrupulous scrubbing of invented fiction from fact. It is acceptable to quote “anonymous sources” or “a source that chose to remain anonymous” if you can produce that person when the subject demands proof in a formal forum. I often do not mention a specific name because his superiors or peer group will unduly harass him for speaking plainly. But I can produce a photograph, time, place, eye witness and name if challenged. Big difference between that approach and some of the rumor dished up as fact here.

    So to repeat. I don’t have a dog in this fight. It appears that two scientists are being maligned and I would think its up to their former employer to resolve this issue. All we can do is provide visibility on some of the problems in the program

  21. Mars Ultor

    You’re the one who needs a reboot, pal. Who is the “trained information gatherer and academic using ambiguous sources when shoring up her own case?” What are her “ambiguous sources?” You make allegations; back them up. State your meaning plainly, or people might mistake you for speaking out of your other orifice. You’re as much of a rumor-monger as anyone else; you simply lack the rectitude to admit so. Despite your disclaimer, you act as though you really do have a dog in this fight; too bad it won’t hunt.

  22. Hank

    Having read John Stanton’s entire series on the HTS program, as well as having talked to sources who were in the program, I am led to wonder, how is it possible that this program is still alive? As one military observer put it the other day, “Will some four-star please put a bullet through its head and give the thing a Christian burial?” Another observer has questioned whether HTS is a “white project” wrapped around a “black project.” That would explain its longevity in the face of spectacular failure. It’s as though the Hindenburg blew up and yet kept right on flying because some unknown force kept it buoyant. Perhaps Dudley-Flores saw something at Bagram–that unknown force–that she wasn’t supposed to see. HTS tells anthropologists that it’s not an intelligence function, but why did the Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence get briefed on HTS in 2007?

    1. Marc Tyrrell

      Just on the “intelligence” issue, I think that some of the problem in the entire debate comes by what is meant by intelligence. Yep, that’s semantics and, contrary to general opinion, semantics should not be a “bad” word (hey, it’s all about “meaning” and if meaning is irrelevant, let’s just put in Humpty-Dumpty as world dictator…).

      The military tends to use “intelligence” in the sense of actionable information that can immediately (short term) help us achieve our mission; basically, as sensory data to understand the landscape and the inhabitants of that landscape. As such, of course the HTS is an “intelligence” asset. If we use “intelligence” with the “spy” connotations – e.g. secrecy, target identification for assassination, etc. ad nauseum – then the HTS is not an intelligence asset.

      The real problem with all of this, at least when we are talking about “intelligence” and control over the production of Anthropological knowledge is, as Max has noted elsewhere, the fact that anything published will be taken and used by others, including the military, for whatever purposes they want. The only “ethical” solution, if one follows the extreme version of “do no harm” and “don’t work, play or talk to the military”, is to not publish anything at all and present no papers to anyone who is not a security cleared Anthropologist who would “never” spread it where the military could use it.

      You see the problem (wry grin)…..

      Ted Carpenter (an Anthropologist at U of T and drinking buddy of my parents) wrote a book called They Became What They Beheld. I think the implication is obvious…

  23. Maximilian Forte

    Not to distract from what I actually think has been valuable discussion overall, my main point to both RYP and John Stanton is this: FRIENDLY FIRE! I think you have both diverged from what was a more mutually reinforcing stance toward each other’s work, to now more heavily slamming each other. John, you should probably not be making allegations about RYP as being CIA, because yes, that could get him killed, and also if one cannot back it up with concrete facts then it can look like malice. RYP, John has excellent reasons for protecting the anonymity of his sources — my only complaint, and it’s a brand new one for me, is that he has probably not done enough to really keep them anonymous. Quoting emails, verbatim, leaving intact all sorts of little stylistic idiosyncrasies can really blow a person’s cover.

    On the other hand, if something is really wrong with HTS, why are its civilian employees not allowed to shout the facts to all four corners of the earth, especially if the higher ups seem to be ignoring their pleas? As civilian researchers, did they sign a statement prohibiting themselves from speaking freely? I thought the program was unclassified and open source (or did they mean open access?). That’s how it has been billed, not so?

  24. John Stanton


    Good points.

    RYP: The comment about intel and you comes from inside DC beltway, not HTS. They pop up now and then when I mention your name and, like I said before, I just shrug my shoulders and say so what, who cares. That’s my way of saying I do not know or really care. I should have explained that more clearly.

    There seems to be some issue as to what is journalism and what is not. I suppose I was miffed and maybe took the wrong way, RYP, your “what’s the other side” comment. Again, as I’ve said before, what to do? Should I have followed the NYT example? They wrote a piece on HTS a year or so ago. In that piece, in order to protect a source, they had a line going something like this: “To protect her identity, let’s just call her Tracey….” Well that’s just great. Anyone could match that name and anthro, hts and find out who she was/is. And that is Tracy St, Benoit. The mass public didn’t know and, I guess, it’s for them, in the main, that we cite. [On a side note, check out Pew’s new report on changes in media landscape..very informative.]

    The decision to write in this manner rests, of course, with me. I make no excuses for that. Errors now and then? Yes, mostly minor. My notes said “midget”: and I was wrong. The guy looks to be about 160lbs or so (I used to non-cheat curl that 6x). That’s no midget, of course. The one significant error in this series: reporting, based on a source, that someone was terminated. I received email on that one from the central figure and from colleagues. I immediately set my error straight in a following piece.

    Max, again, I agree. My son and I were just reading through your blog and a few others. He was laughing aloud, as he said, at the adolescent–play ground atmosphere in many of our comments.

    My response was that there is no such thing as adults and that ad hoc is a way of life for the lot of us..

    RYP: invitation still stands for beverages in DC. Max you too.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      John, when we hear about, and see the photos of the way “adults” were acting on that base, I am not sure that you need to offer any apologies or explanations. That photo of a man on the back of a woman, it’s actually quite disgusting when you think he is a grown man who thinks this is something funny to do. As for the Air Base, they should rename it, from Bagram to “South Park.”

  25. John Stanton

    RYP–can you get your admin to give me an authentication key so I can deal with some of the folks on Black Flag?

  26. WOTN

    “Dudley‐Flores was terminated for non‐performance”
    Everything else sounds like sour grapes and paranoia.

    As one commenter stated: “these are serious allegations” when discussing a rumored illegality by their chosen heroine. The original allegations in the article are of greater seriousness and UNPROVEN.

    If Dudley-Flores physical condition prevented her from actually engaging in her own security, then she should not have been in a combat zone, period. If such is the case, she is not the only person in a place she should never have been, but there is difference in a person paid to go to “Indian Country” and talk to potential enemy agents and a mechanic hired to fix air-conditioners at Bagram.

    If her physical condition then put her in harm’s way, because she was physically unable to perform the evacuation from a battlefield, then she put her self in that position.

    If however, she was capable of engaging in her own safety, was doing so when those bullets were flying (assuming of course that there was a combat situation, rather than exaggeration), and she was abandoned, then how did she survive at all?

    If there were a plot to kill or get her killed, then that would be a criminal act and no matter how distasteful a picture you paint of Ms. Dudley-Flores, neither I nor any other “milblogger” would defend that action, IF it were proven.

    In the end, the original article is not journalism, it is not a good argument. It does not provide evidence to support its supposition. It is nothing more than gossip and sensationalism designed to elicit outrage for political purposes. Neither it nor the discussion is worthy of the kind of debate I expect from the “scientific” community and I was disappointed to find this style of “debate” on a website purporting to be that of rational scientists. I’ve read conspiracy theories that were better thought out, from both sides of the political spectrum.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Right…I see, so the proper approach is to say nothing at all, even if it means occluding that which is right. There are different kinds of conspiracies, and one of them is a conspiracy of silence.

      Scientists have nothing to investigate, if there is no statement of a problem to begin with.

      The fact that someone inside the program would say anything like this, at least indicates that there could be a serious problem.

      By the way, you missed one key point: nothing was actually “proven” to us, as readers, about the death of Paula Loyd. No statements from the parties involved were ever provided. There were no eyewitness accounts from Afghans in that market. No statement from the Afghan police. No photos, and no words from Abdul Salam. That, however, did not stop the Loyd Grief Parade. Do you see my point now?

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Hey, you’re “Cannoneer No. 4″…I just realized, we have “met” before. You never did answer one question that someone put to you back then: what happened to cannoneer nos. 1 through 3?

    2. Maximilian Forte

      P.S: I don’t purport to be a “rational scientist.” That is a category inhabited by Nazi surgeons, nuclear weapons researchers, and the producers of endless diet pills.

      I purport to be an irrational artist, who on occasion is careless and self-destructive enough to sometimes sound like a rational scientist.

      1. Marc Tyrrell

        LOLOL I’m going to quote you on that one of these days (GRIN).

        Personally, I am always rational…. the “rationality, of course, might not be generally accepted…

        Back to the case…

        “The fact that someone inside the program would say anything like this, at least indicates that there could be a serious problem.”

        Totally agree, but we may disagree on what that problem may be. As I mentioned elsewhere, I can think of several, equally plausible scenarios that would produce all of the data that has, so far, come to light. Some of those scenarios involve the bloated, money-grubbing version of the HTS some people love, while others have a totally different source dealing with psychotic academics who can’t hold jobs. Still others are based on the premise of never assuming malice where stupidity could account for the facts. The point is that I can’t eliminate any of them and that all are, IMO, equally plausible under Ginzburg’s Razor.

      2. Maximilian Forte

        I can’t wait for you to get back so that you can start to outline your analysis of this article, the discussions, etc.

        Also, really, feel free to quote that line :D

    3. Mars Ultor

      “Dudley‐Flores was terminated for non‐performance?”

      Exactly what does that mean? If you take the time to research her background, it is quite obvious that she was quite capable of performance, both academically and militarily.

      Try this experiment: go to Google Scholar and search her name. Do the same thing for any other person in the HTS program. I have found that Dudley-Flores has more search hits on Google Scholar than anyone I know of in HTS except McFate; however, most of McFate’s search hits are repetitions across multiple sites, and there are also a lot of citations of McFate, whom HTS has made famous, rather than publications actually authored by her. Taking these factors into account, Dudley-Flores appears to be far and away the most competent scientist HTS had.

      “Everything else sounds like sour grapes and paranoia.”

      Who cares what it sounds like to you? Do the research, collect the data.

      If Dudley-Flores’ physical condition had prevented her from actually engaging in her own security, how is it that she pass all medical requirements of the HTS program?

      “If however, she was capable of engaging in her own safety, was doing so when those bullets were flying (assuming of course that there was a combat situation, rather than exaggeration), and she was abandoned, then how did she survive at all?”

      Good question. She was not issued a firearm, but she elected to carry a combat knife. She knew how to use it, too. Just ask anyone who was in the training exercise with her at Ft. Irwin in September 2008. In fact, she made suggestions regarding the repositioning of several of the female soldiers she was with, which they followed, and she covered a position that had been left undefended.

      In any case, when she did take fire in Ghazni city, she and the Sp4 with her moved out smartly. She knew what to do, she was capable of doing it, she did it. But it is also a fact that the 1LT was far out of position, which is just as well; he probably would have screwed up the situation even worse.

    4. WTFO

      You guys either talk about Dr. — NOW GET THAT — DR. Dudley-Flores like she is an unknown quantity, or you just uncritically urp up whatever some dork at Bagram or Leavenworth spoon-feeds you, like it was gospel, like they don’t have an agenda. Cripes, are any of you “milbloggers” intel guys? Do you know how to do all-source intel? Or would rather not bother, and instead give us these tedious “if this… if that” sermons?

      1. Mike the Cat


        Millbloggers doing intel? You’re kidding, right?

        Everything about the Black Flag Cafe screams a total absence of military professionalism. These aren’t defenders of our freedom, because they have no understanding of the Constitution to which they swore oaths. These aren’t soldiers, they are nothing more than street punks with clothing issue and PX privileges. Just glance briefly at the T&A pics on the Black Flag Cafe website and you’ll see what a sick bunch of sex-and-violence fetish freaks they are:

        Probably most of them have never served a day in uniform but just sit around fantasizing with the latest issue of “Soldier of Fortune” in one hand and in the other….

  27. RYP

    “RYP–can you get your admin to give me an authentication key so I can deal with some of the folks on Black Flag?”

    I don’t run the forum but I have sent an email. We welcome all particpants. I have just censored “Old Blue” for providing unethical proof of a U.S. officers malfeasance. Normally I don’t do that but this case I find him reckless and eager to damage someone he doesn’t know.

  28. RYP

    Mike the Cat…

    Wiggah.pullease… The Black Flag Cafe has nothing to do with the military or even the U.S. Its a place where people around the world get information on war zones, safety and travel.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Don’t answer this please RYP. That is one thing I cannot permit on this blog, unless it is in the form of a quote from a known person, as in an actual statement that has been formally documented.

  29. Tim Buttons

    Something does, indeed, seem screwy here. If you know anything about the military…take a look at this part of Ms. Dudley-Flores resume/c.v. (openly posted on the intertubes you can find it on her Linkin profile…it is, indeed, 25 pages). It is, if you know your way around the military, an utterly bizarre document. This is not a defense of her or an attack. It does, however, point strongly to a personality which might be inclined to twist facts/stories. After reading this, meh, I’m not so sure about the woman anymore.:

    Military/Department of Defense


    U.S. Army Quartermaster Center and School
    Selected as Editor. Training texts and materials for the U.S. Army Quartermaster Center and School for Arabic-speaking officers and non-commissioned officers from Middle Eastern militaries. Fort Lee, Virginia.7

    For the 172nd Arctic Light Infantry Brigade
    Clerk, “B Shop,” Ordnance and heavy equipment facility, Company B, Support Battalion, 172nd Arctic Light Infantry Brigade (Maneuverable), Fort Richardson, Alaska. (First woman to work in the shop.)

    Combat mountaineer (first Army woman). Eklutna Glacier field training site, Chugach
    Mountains, Alaska.8

    􀂃 As covered in “Eklutna: Happy Home in a Happy Wilderness,” Snowhawk Life and
    Times, Volume 12, Number 12, an Army publication with worldwide distribution.
    Selected for combat mountaineer courses in leadership and assault climbing, Northern Warfare Training School, Black Rapids field training site, Alaska.

    Became the feature editor, a staff writer, and a photojournalist for the Snowhawk Life and Times, Brigade Information Office. Supervisor: LTC H. Norman Schwarzkopf. When newly promoted COL Schwarzkopf left Fort Richardson, Alaska as Deputy Post Commander, the Brigade Information Office was shut down. I returned to a Quartermaster function as follows.

    7 Instructors at the Quartermaster School were not able to break my Unit-of-Choice enlistment contract and I was sent on to Alaska over the need for me at the School and my wish to alter the contract and remain at Fort Lee to edit the texts.

    8 While other women were at the site, they did not participate in the training. Subsequent cycles of training did see women fully participating rather than largely observing.

    Dudley-Flores’ CV 8

    Quartermaster Support Staff. Field Medical Operations. Company C “Charlie Medics,” Support Battalion, 172nd Arctic Light Infantry Brigade.

    222 training hours, Precommission Course, Infantry School coursework, documented in my General Education Development Individual Record, AR 621-5. I was able to separate from my Army enlistment early in order to enroll in Army ROTC. In my final months with the 172nd, I served as the Brigade’s Historian. Historian. 172nd Arctic Light Infantry Brigade. Currently known as “the 172nd Stryker Brigade.”


    Student, Senior Army Reserve Officer Training Corps, University of Alaska-Anchorage. (About a year into my program, Congress discontinued the college ROTC program in Alaska. I was able to enroll in Air Force ROTC at another university.)9

    Top scorer. Air Force Officer’s Qualification Test.
    Student, Senior Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps, Washington State University.10


    Member, Society of American Military Engineers (SAME). I attended meetings and events at Fort Wainwright, Fairbanks, Alaska.

    Selected for field examination board for scientific and technical direct commission to the rank of Major, Army Corps of Engineers. Fort Wainwright, Fairbanks, Alaska.
    Selected for direct commissioning processing as 2nd Lieutenant, Army National Guard,
    Anchorage, Alaska.11

    9 Attracted by officer recruiter’s promotion of potential entrée into the third or later class of women being trained to fly high-performance aircraft.

    10 After all of that, I was not able to continue owing to the failing health of a family member in Alaska.

    11 I had already been denied entry into the Army Corps of Engineers owing to my gender. (I would have probably been the first military woman to serve as an Engineer in a field-grade rank had my processing not been stymied.) Next, portions of my Alaska National Guard officer commissioning paperwork that was in processing (as a fall back avenue for an officer’s commission) was apparently lost when the Alaska ANG was mustered to the Presidio in San Francisco during the Gulf War. I never heard what happened to that commissioning effort. Had I been able to produce my commissioning packet in its entirety, officer recruiters in Columbia, South Carolina (where I was by this time in my doctoral program) would have been able to fast-track me as an officer in the regular Army during the Gulf War.

    1. Mars Ultor

      Isn’t it interesting that there is never anything but innuendo from these guys:

      “Something does, indeed, seem screwy here… an utterly bizarre document… a personality which might be inclined to twist facts/stories… I’m not so sure about the woman anymore.”

      I’m pretty sure about you, and specifically, your cognitive ability: it’s adolescent. Show me a fact to disprove what Dudley-Flores has in her CV or bug off.

      Meanwhile, notice that there have been no takers on my invitation to research the scholarship of HTS personnel? What a surprise! Everyone wants to wear the brass and braid but no one wants to do the staff work.

      Content-analyzing Mc Fate’s Google Scholar hits and stripping out the junk, she has precisely five — count them, five — publications:

      Anthropology and counterinsurgency: The strange story of their curious relationship
      M McFate – Military Review, 2005

      Building bridges or burning heretics?
      M McFate – Anthropology Today, 2007 –

      Iraq: The Social Context of IEDs
      JD Montgomery McFate – MILITARY REVIEW, 2005 –

      The Military Utility of Understanding Adversary Culture
      MC FATE – Joint Force Quarterly No. 38 –

      The Object Beyond War, Counterinsurgency and the Four Tools of Political Competition
      M McFate, AV Jackson – Military Review, 2006 –

      It is revealing that, other than rebutting Roberto Gonzales in one issue of Anthropology Today, McFate has no publications whatsoever that show up outside of a military venue. She is entirely the invention of U.S. Army. There’s probably a procurement contract number stenciled on the back of her neck.

      In stunning contrast, Dudley-Flores, a.k.a. Dudley-Rowley, has nearly 40 distinct publications listed in Google Scholar. Now, in the face of this brief review of the evidence, with the promise of extensive detail to back it up. who among the milbloggers, or the Leavenworth-Bagram Axis of Disinformation, is prepared to offer a cogent argument against Dr. Dudley-Flores? That is the challenge that I throw at your feet.

      Quite frankly, if there were an issue of performance, the issue was that Dudley-Flores was higher-performing than McFate, Fondacaro, or anyone else in the HTS program.

      The staff of the 101st Airborne was ignorant of Dudley-Flores’ record, thus they were ignorant of the valuable asset she was. They were also ignorant Milan Sturgis’ lack of scholarship (his Google Scholar score is zero), thus they were ignorant that he was manipulating them and subverting the mission to protect his position.

      Sun Tzu: Therefore I say, ‘Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles
      you will never be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril.’

      Li Ch’uan: Such people are called ‘mad bandits.’ What can they expect if not defeat?

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Personally, I agree with with much if not most of what you have written on these posts so far, and this comparison is, as far as I can see a valid one. I believe McFate has written a little more though, if I recall her personal webpage (the address is not at hand, but it could be something like The point is, Dudley-Flores is a person who apparently has had a wealth of experience, training, and research with a very large track record. Nuts tend to out themselves as nuts quite quickly, and I see nothing of the nut in her record. And quite frankly she could even be a total liar and basket case: that does not justify the death threats and sexual harassment as substantiated, at the very least, by the photos. It also does not justify the alleged lack of action to protect her.

    2. Mike the Cat

      Maybe she’s just led a more interesting and productive life than you have.

  30. Hank

    It’s a failure of imagination. It reminds me of that painting of Galileo explaining to the princes of the Church that they were seeing the Jupiter’s moons in his telescope. The Inquisition put him under house arrest. Tell me, what has changed?

    1. Mike the Cat

      Honey, it’s more than that. Read the “code:” I’m not so sure about “the woman.” I did not have sex with “that woman.” If we look like the T&A photos in the Black Flag Cafe, we are objects of lust; if we don’t, we’re objects of ridicule. M-I-S-O-G-Y-N-Y. There’s nothing but hate and degradation in these men. Oh, and the most unforgivable sin is to be female and smart. They really fear that. That’s why they’re going to so much trouble to belittle Dudley-Flores. It’s so sick. They’re such cowards. Just stand up to them and they’ll run home crying to their mamas.

  31. Concerned

    Want to see the real Dudley-Flores? Try She is a fraud, and should be ashamed of herself. Before HTS she had never been to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anywhere else in Central or South Asia. She never met Louis Dupree, was never a commissioned officer, can’t speak any foreign language, and inserted so many half-truths and lies into her voluminous resume it should be shelved in the fiction section. I worked with her, and know wherefore of what I speak. While it is disgraceful that the problem was dealt with in such a juvenile fashion, the biggest tragedy is that she wasn’t fired within ten minutes of entering HTS HQ. Good riddance.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        I thought it was clear that it was her site, at first glance, at least it was for me. What is the problem with that site? I don’t see how it serves to demonstrate any of the allegations now being made, as if the story were really one about Dudley-Flores’ CV.

        This is really disturbing to me, because it resembles those cases where a rape victim is subjected to all kinds of media abuse as a slut, shoplifter, crack smoker, etc.

      2. Marc Tyrrell

        Max, one of the things I’ve noticed and you’ve mentioned as well, is that sites can sometimes be put up against people; Potemkin Villages in an IO campaign as it were. In other words, the site might have been put up by someone who wanted to attack her. That’s why I checked out the WHOIS, especially for the time on when it was created.

      3. Maximilian Forte

        Yes, that is also why I checked her attacker, Concerned, who is writing to us from a desk in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Just a coincidence, I am sure.

        Otherwise, the site suggested nothing to me about the possibility that it might be attacking her. It seems to be acknowledging her role and seeking recognition for her service.

    1. Mars Ultor

      We are to believe that the “real” Dudley-Flores is a few paragraphs on an orphaned, five-year-old website? How pathetic you are! More innuendo, more unsubstantiated allegations.

      There is nothing on of any substance, one way or the other. It consists of a couple of paragraphs, and it says nothing about Dr. Dudley-Flores herself. What it talks about–very briefly–is people who did their duty for this country and were then forgotten. That is a sociological phenomenon worthy of study. It is a project that she intended to do but never got around to carrying through. It has been a one-page place-holder since I first registered the domain name for her five years ago. After the first year, I asked her, why are you paying for this? She said she wanted to do something with the website someday, that it was important to research and to tell the story of America’s forgotten heroes. So what if she hasn’t done this yet? This is not evidence of anything. This is more inane finger-pointing. Worse than that, it is taking one of Dudley-Flores’ noble ideas and turning it into something ugly. That is utterly despicable, and it is a further demonstration of the desperation and dishonor of these so-called “officers” who are engaged in this campaign of disinformation. They are disgraces to the uniform.

      I have worked with Dudley-Flores, too. In fact, I have known her for ten years. She has never claimed to have been to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anywhere else in Central or South Asia before HTS. If fact, she was happy to see Afghanistan for the first time, nearly 30 years after being so involved from afar in its historical events, and she looked forward to performing her duties at Bagram.

      She has never claimed to have met Louis Dupree face to face, only that she communicated with him on a weekly basis in the early 1980s as they worked together to arrange the rescue and relocation of about 1,000 Kara Kirghiz of the Wakhan Corridor who had fled to Pakistan following the Soviet invasion. Take a look at:

      Three years of her overall association with Dupree are archived in his personal papers in library collection at Duke University. Take a look at:

      This Harvard Crimson article, dated 14 January 1982, describes the role Dudley-Flores played in the Kirghiz rescue and relocation effort.

      Ted Eliot, the American ambassador to Afghanistan from 1973 to 1978, lives in a town in the same county where Dudley-Flores resides, and has written of the Kara Kirghiz rescue and relocation, “That was one of the great refugee stories of recent times.”

      Dr. Dudley-Flores has never claimed that she was a commissioned officer, but there is documentary evidence that she received pre-commissioning training, while enlisted and later in ROTC programs at the University of Alaska, Anchorage and at Washington State University. Much documentary evidence exists of direct commission effort just previous to the Gulf War.

      I have heard Dudley-Flores speak French, German, Arabic, and Russian, and I know for a fact that she has had a year of formal instruction in Italian, so your statement that she “can’t speak any foreign language” is a flat-out falsehood. it is you to whom truth is a foreign language, and you have no fluency in it. You, sir, are a liar and a libeler, you should be shelved in a small cell in Leavenworth, and that would be good riddance.

      It is well for you to be “concerned.” You should be concerned for your own future. You may be one of these Army officers trained in “information operations,” a euphemism for “propaganda.” Your problem is that none of you are any good at it. Everything you people have thrown at Dr. Dudley-Flores has been easily disproved. When will you surrender?

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Mars, sorry about this, I was out all day and your message (which contained more than a couple of links) was automatically shelved by wordpress for approval (in case it was link spam). This is a very valuable set of counterpoints, I am glad you posted this. There seems to be an effort to destroy the credibility of Dudley-Flores…which to me suggests that Stanton’s story is right on target.

    2. Mars Ultor

      Let’s do some time calculations.

      Dr. Dudley-Flores was assigned to Bagram for ten weeks.

      For the first three weeks, Milan Sturgis deliberately impeded her getting badged so that she could work in the Joint Operations Compound. (By the way, an HTAT member has stated that during those three weeks during which she was limited to doing open-source research, she produced a more valuable product than the HTAT had produced during its entire period of existence, which is not terribly strange, since she was the only real social scientist there.)

      Then she spent two weeks on a mission at FOB Ghazni.

      So, out of the total of ten weeks that she was assigned to Bagram, you had only five weeks’ opportunity to make yourself a world-famous expert on Dudley-Flores. How much opportunity was there? I have reports from several HTAT members that Rev. Sturgis set himself up as the single point of contact with the 101st Airborne Division. All interaction between the two organizations went through him. So, do you really know anything at all about Dudley-Flores based on personal contact with her? I rather doubt it. Let’s research the ontology. How do you know what it is that you think you know?

    3. Mars Ultor

      We are to believe that the “real” Dudley-Flores is a few paragraphs on an orphaned, five-year-old website? How pathetic you are! More innuendo, more unsubstantiated allegations.

      There is nothing on of any substance, one way or the other. It consists of a couple of paragraphs, and it says nothing about Dr. Dudley-Flores herself. What it talks about–very briefly–is people who did their duty for this country and were then forgotten. That is a sociological phenomenon worthy of study. It is a project that she intended to do but never got around to carrying through. It has been a one-page place-holder since I first registered the domain name for her five years ago. After the first year, I asked her, why are you paying for this? She said she wanted to do something with the website someday, that it was important to research and to tell the story of America’s forgotten heroes. So what if she hasn’t done this yet? This is not evidence of anything. This is more inane finger-pointing. Worse than that, it is taking one of Dudley-Flores’ noble ideas and turning it into something ugly. That is utterly despicable, and it is a further demonstration of the desperation and dishonor of these so-called “officers” who are engaged in this campaign of disinformation.

      I have worked with Dudley-Flores, too. In fact, I have known her for ten years. She has never claimed to have been to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anywhere else in Central or South Asia before HTS. If fact, she was happy to see Afghanistan for the first time, nearly 30 years after being so involved from afar in its historical events, and she looked forward to performing her duties at Bagram.

      She has never claimed to have met Louis Dupree face to face, only that she communicated with him on a weekly basis in the early 1980s as they worked together to arrange the rescue and relocation of about 1,000 Kara Kirghiz of the Wakhan Corridor who had fled to Pakistan following the Soviet invasion. Take a look at:

      Three years of her overall association with Dupree are archived in his personal papers in library collection at Duke University. Take a look at:

      This Harvard Crimson article, dated 14 January 1982, describes the role Dudley-Flores played in the Kirghiz rescue and relocation effort.

      Ted Eliot, the American ambassador to Afghanistan from 1973 to 1978, lives in a town in the same county where Dudley-Flores resides, and has written of the Kara Kirghiz rescue and relocation, “That was one of the great refugee stories of recent times.”

    4. Maximilian Forte

      Let’s just assume that everything you assert is absolutely true, “Concerned”. Does it justify sexual harassment? Does it justify death threats? Does it justify the purported inaction of those in charge of the program?

      Please, try to stick the issues, this is not the place for us to evaluate Dr. Dudley-Flores credentials, and I don’t think that we have the means to do so. I have seen that same link on my own, previously. Sorry, I don’t see any problems there like the ones you claim we can find.

      P.S.: Concerned is posting from an IP at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

  32. RYP


    You are welcome to look a little closer at the Flag..they have women posting pictures of women, men posting pictures of men and vice versa. Since you are new you would not know that our cultural marker for a thread getting too boring is usually for Mike the Hack to post a bathing suit picture. When I find strings boring I have been know to post pics of fat men in gold thongs. Its all about the threadbomb.

    But as far as your other comments go… Montgomery has had a very interesting and diverse background that has been dragged around in the media. Personally I would think that would serve a person well. One of the hallmarks of the HTS anthros is many of them have unusual backgrounds. Once I again I don’t think that is negative but there are some rumblings that Dudley Flores did not have the background she purported to have.

    That’s something I would like to see more investigation into. As I have said before the HTS program is having a hard time filling its 600 or so slots and they make extraordinary demands on civilians working in high risk environments. The new pay cuts and growing sense of concern about the validity of the program is also making it tough to find and attract good people. Some of my friends were actively and aggressively recruited and they simply felt this was not something they want on their resume. Those that entertained the idea were lower down on the social scientist totem pole and were simply in need of a job.

    But even good people have been kicked to the curb by either a cumbersome review process or left because of pure professional frustration.

    And I know this is wrong thread but I do sense a stunning silence from the milbloggers on the effectiveness of HTS as a contracted program rather than an organic military function. I would assume that the Marine Major’s article has flummoxed them.

    Or are they waiting patiently for their talking points?

    1. Mars Ultor


      This is your most intelligent post to date on this thread, where you discuss the HTS program and its problems.

      But… “rumblings?” More rumor, more innuendo. You actually know nothing about Dr. Dudley-Flores, isn’t that so? Here, you don’t have a signal, you’re not contributing to any signal, you’re just part of the noise.

      That McFate “has had a very interesting and diverse background” is not necessarily a negative, but by the same token, neither is that necessarily a negative for Dudley-Flores. Yet the Army values McFate’s “very interesting and diverse background” and at the same time is hell-bent on destroying Dudley-Flores’ reputation because of her “very interesting and diverse background.” That is obviously a double standard. I do care, as other academics do, that McFate has few publications and that none of them are of any substance. That is where McFate and Dudley-Flores differ in the most spectacular way imaginable. This, more than anything, shines a bright light on the motivation for getting rid of Dudley-Flores. She is “The Woman Who Knew Too Much.”

      1. Mike the Cat

        Right on, brother! Knowledgeable women are as big a threat to the US Army as they are to the Taliban, and they just as feared and just as hated. There is no difference between the Army and the Taliban in its views on and its treatment of women. The real war on terrorism is neither in Iraq nor Afghanistan, neither against Al Qaeda nor the Taliban, but in the United States and against its sexist, imperialist Army, against the reactionary misogynist oppressors who would roll back the societal gains that women made in the 20th century.

  33. RYP


    You assume that I am ill informed and you forget that at least three times I have said I have no opinion specifically on Dr Dudley Flores in this latest article, other than the internal friction between staff, management and staff and between military and contractors seems to conform to my experiences.

    I made the very clear statement that I would like to see more investigation. Bona fides are very easy to prove if someone is disparaging you. I am not seeing the direct connection between a program director and an employee being compared on a toe to toe basis. I think my comment that diverse background is a positive not a negative. Since management has different responsibilities and skill sets compared to field workers I don’t know why their publications or credentials must be compared. When you say McFate’s publications have little substance…her contribution to the COIN manual and the articles that pushed the HTS program into reality are not of substance?

    You undermine your defense of Dudley-Flores by mounting a flawed offense. :)))

    1. Mars Ultor

      There is no flaw in my offense. You don’t have any first-hand knowledge of what is under discussion, at least you have offered none, so you are ill-informed. You say that you have no opinion, which is about the most honorable position one could take in your position, since you do not know Dr. Dudley-Flores, nor do you have any first-hand knowledge of events either in Leavenworth or at Bagram. Yet, at the same time, you make yourself a conduit of rumor and innuendo, passing on vague reports of “rumblings,” and that is manifestly irresponsible. If you can’t see that, you have no moral compass.

      When it comes to scholarship, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You don’t understand that since the only venues in which McFate has published are Army publications, her credentials as a social scientist are questionable, therefore her “contribution to the COIN manual and the articles that pushed the HTS program into reality” may not be of substance, as they were not peer-reviewed by social scientists. Computer scientists coined a term decades ago: “Garbage in, garbage out.” McFate’s half-baked and unvetted ideas went in, HTS came out.

  34. Bob Bateman


    I am “Tim Buttons” from above. Apologize the one-post sock-puppetry. When I am dropping in to someplace like a news site or an unfamiliar blog and I do *not* want to be involved/engaged, (or leave my e-mail address littered all over the internet) I’ll use an anonymous nickname. As most of you do. But if I am going to engage, I use my actual name. So, my real name is Robert Bateman. As I posted under my real name on a related topic on a related page, it looks like I am (to use Monty Python references), “Here for an argument.” My personal rule is that I only do so under my own name.

    “Mars Ultor” wrote, “I’m pretty sure about you, and specifically, your cognitive ability: it’s adolescent. Show me a fact to disprove what Dudley-Flores has in her CV or bug off.”

    I apologize, but if you do not post under a real name (or at least your initials, as RYP does), I won’t be engaging you. I don’t have time to interact with those who use anonymous handles perpetually. Disclaimer on what follows: I am not in the 101st, never have been. I don’t know any of the principles in this brouhaha over Ms. Dudley-Flores, nor do I know the woman herself, nor do I have a clue who “Old Blue” might be. I am, however, a person who straddles both professional military and academia, so am somewhat uniquely qualified on this topic. I am also eminantly a provable ‘real’ person. But it’s up to you to confirm that.

    So, with that in mind, away we go.

    I came into this story thinking all was on the up-and-up. But when I scratched the surface, my BS detectors started going off. In particular this was happening with regard to Dudley-Flores and her c.v./biography. Because I am an academic (I teach history in the School of Foreign Services, Georgetown University), I’ll start off with that side of the pile. Later I can come back to the jaw-dropping assertions in her military bio section. But that’s posted already, so it can wait a bit. Let’s look at the way she portrays herself to academics.

    So, right off the bat some things popped out. On pg 3 of her bio, Ms. Dudley-Flores asserted that between 1978 and 1982 she noticed: “Arabic, Farsee, and Pushtu or any other related language were not being taught at the Defense Language Institute during this time period. Recognizing the need, I lobbied for those languages to be taught at the time.”

    A few questions immediately popped up. First, how would she know? Remember that at this time she was a dropped-out former ROTC cadet. She was not a student at DLI. She had no official rank in the military and one presumes that as a former Private First Class, her connections and ability to “lobby” the Department of Defense might be, well, limited. Indeed, as she had no contractual obligation or relationship with the military at all at this point (she got out of her enlistment contract early to attend ROTC, but then dropped out of that) one might suggest that this is topping it a little bit. But it’s early. Let’s move on.

    Ms. Dudley-Flores says that with one other man she organized an airlift of people from the border area of Afghanistan into…where? Yea, it gets a bit sketchy. She wrote, “Chief Negotiator (with Dr. Louis Dupree). The rescue and relocation of about 1,000 Kara Kirghiz Central Asians from the Wakhan Corridor of Afghanistan to the Turkey-Iran border country, among the Kurds near Lake Van, effectively preventing their genocide at the hands of invading Soviets.”

    Now you may be scratching your head, as I was, saying, “whaaaa?” I mean, well, it’s 1979, the Soviets are invading…and they’re not coming that way at all…( at least initially) See a map of the area. Which then begs the question, given that the Wakhan corridor is all border, why not just walk the 5 or 6 miles into Pakistan? Why take them to…Turkey? OK, it’s strange, but not out and out impossible. Some of what comes next really is.

    Ms. Dudley-Flores goes a long way to cite all the news organizations that covered the relocation, and the State Department and a whole bunch of other organizations who were supporting her, including

    “Some supporting organizations on stand-by at the time of the rescue/relocation:

    U.S. Navy Hospital Ship Hope”

    Ummmm, yea…no.

    See, the problem there is that there is no U.S. Navy Hospital Ship Hope. But just to be thorough about these things:

    List of all Hospital Ships:

    A USNS Hope existed, to be sure, but that was WWII and it was decommissioned and sold for scrap in 1946:

    There is a “Hope Class” now…but it’s the BOB Hope class of roll-on-roll-off prepositioning ships. Which nobody would confuse for a hospital ship.

    The real problem here, in her talking about ships that were in support and standing by (for what? For her orders?) is that in the period 1978-1982, when she makes the claim that the USNS (a hospital ship) was “on stand by”…not only there was no ship named Hope, but because of the budget there was no hospital ship in the whole fleet. Here are the current ships.

    How are we doing so far Mars?

    All the rest of her list of claims and supporting agencies are, essentially, unverifiable. Further, she skips one detail which I found amazing: Who Paid for This?

    You know academics are supposed to be skeptics, and infantrymen doubly so. So I immediately noticed that. Then I also noticed that she did not mention who actually flew these 1,000 people and their belongings across from Central Asia (what airport? Kabul?), which you’d kind of think was a “supporting agency,” and she didn’t mention who she negotiated with…the Soviets? Who cleared the airspace/flight. And finally, most curiously of all, what was the date(s)? All of which would make this story eminently more checkable.

    Now, in case you think I’m being paranoid, rest assured, I’ve done this before. Not with an academic, but with a veteran who’s biography sounded just grand. ( )

    So, now we’re into a more modern period, 1990-1992 in her bio. There we see a curious footnote, one which to me suggests something about the personality and sentiments of the author, Ms. Dudley-Flores. “1990 – 1992 Thwarted at every turn to re-enter and serve the US Army as an officer providing scientific and technological know-how preceding and during the Gulf War…”

    Which made me wonder, because at this point she all that she has are an undergraduate degree in and a Masters degree in English and more recently an MA in Anthropology. This collection of qualifications hardly qualify one to provide advice on science and technology to the Department of Defense or the research branch of the DoD, DARPA, let alone receive a commission as an officer in the Corps of Engineers. (Which, later in the bio, is what she says she deserved. But that will come in my analysis of the military part of her bio.)

    Anyway, then she starts writing about a project she worked on when she was a student in South Carolina: “Our methods and what we tried to do for Kuwait foreshadowed the use of social network and other analytical concepts in military environments that are featured in their basics in Appendix B of FM 3-24 (MCWP 33.3-5) Counterinsurgency, which was not published till December 2006.”

    Yep, another one of those “huh?” moments, because in the same section you’ll see that she never actually published a single work on the project which she said she led, and which she claims to have foreshadowed the current doctrine. (See the rest of her CV here: click on ‘personnel’ and then her name.) Instead, she says, “When the tribunal was not convened, I turned our Kuwait Victimization Assessment Data Base (KVAD) methodology over to the UN research division through collegial ties.” Take a look further down in the bio, to the section Journal Articles and Technical Papers/Related Presentations and you will see that she never, ever, published a single work on the topic she says she devoted two years to during her PhD candidacy, nor is it anywhere in any presentation she ever gave. This, it would seem, is a non-sequitor at best, and is more likely just blatant outright puffery

    Mars, is this provable? Did you look at her cv/bio yet? Are my facts straight so far? OK, let’s proceed.

    And at this point it starts getting strange. She starts going on and on about proposals she has written or made, the unifying factor of which being that she made the proposals to significant people or organizations. What is telling, of course, if you read all 25 pages of her bio, is that none of these proposals ever resulted in anything. They weren’t grant winners, they didn’t get published, they did not change doctrine or organizations or anything. But if you only glance at them, they sure *seem* impressive. For example…

    “…proposed to government agencies the methodology for “Needle-in-a-Haystack Analysis of SIGINT Archives For Proximal Real-Time Response”

    (Which agencies? This sounds like bar-talk. Cite “government agencies” and then refuse to say which ones? It’s like back in the 80s and 90s when you’d run into guys who claimed to have been in “the Phoenix program, man, in the Nam, it was bad”, but then can’t cough up a DD 214.)

    Then she continues, listing another proposal…“The Transnationalization of Terror – a Human Factors Approach to Networks of Personnel, Materiel and Technologies, and Locations,” A proposal submitted to the NATO Manfred Woerner Fellowship

    And she starts talking about fellowships, which is fine. We all list our professional organizations. But most of them are relevant to who we are. I’m in several academic historical societies, and a member of the Association of the United States Army, and the Marine Corps Association, and the Naval Institute, for example, and on one line I list those things on my c.v., but she writes it out, and it’s strange: “I became a member of the former USIA Alumni Association (now known as the Public Diplomacy Alumni Association) and the Foreign Service Association of Northern California (FSANC). I remain so till this day.”

    She says this despite the fact that she was never IN the United States Information Agency…or a member of the State Department’s Foreign Service. But that, apparently, is not for lack of trying. A few lines later we see that while she was in California in the 90s she apparently wanted to be in the State Department.

    She wrote, “I engaged the Foreign Service training and testing process, preparing with the help of three diplomats-in-residence: Ambassador Janet Sanderson (UC-Berkeley) and senior Foreign Service Officers Les McBee (UC-Berkeley) and Celio Sandate (Stanford University).

    OK, I know something about this. Not just because a bunch of my friends are Foreign Service Officers. Not just because my wife works in the State Department (yes, we’re a ‘mixed marriage couple’…I’m DoD and she’s State), not just because I teach in Georgetown’s School of Foreign Service. But because I have an IQ over 90.

    There IS NO “Foreign Service Training and Testing process” that you can be a part of in California. There is only the Foreign Service Exam, given several times a year, by the State Department. It’s a two part exam, and it is a monster, let me assure you. Part one is written, and that’s not bad if you’re smart and have a degree in appropriate areas. If you pass that you get invited to part two. Part two is a full-day live role-playing exercise observed by FSOs, capped with personal interviews conducted by FSOs, and then an immediate decision.

    If, and only if, you pass both parts and the interview, are you invited to come here to Washington, DC, to attend the Foreign Service Institute (FSI), which is the only place in the world that “Foreign Service Training” takes place. (It’s about five miles from where I’m sitting. Nice place.)

    OK, so maybe what she meant to say was that she tried to prep for the test. She did not *really* want to create the impression that she had been advising the State Department, helping them fix their programs, etc. She just meant to say that she studied to take the exam. Right, but who puts that on their resume? Who put’s down, “Studied SAT Study Guide” and “Extensive GRE Prep with Kaplan Institute”? Seriously. Which leads to the next part…anyone want to guess how she DID on the test? She doesn’t say. (But we do know from her work record that she never spent a day on the State Department payroll. Instead she says this:

    “I recognized deficits in the recruitment and testing processes, made recommendations, and also made recommendations for substantial improvement in the career tracks of junior to senior Foreign Service Officers. I conveyed these recommendations in person to Ambassador J.Anthony Holmes, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, who was the President of the American Foreign Service Association in 2006.”

    Hmmmm. OK, I think that makes it clear. But it gets better.

    My recommendations can be viewed in my paper written for The Foreign Service Journal, “Transformational Recruitment: Beyond the American College Testing Model.”

    Notice something here? How does one check that? You can’t. You know why? Because there’s no publishing data. No Volume, Issue number, month, nothing. Why? Because it was not published. Yes, she’s citing, and telling you to look up, an unpublished paper which only she has possibly ever seen, but she’s making it LOOK (to a non-academic) like her paper was actually published by the Foreign Service Journal.

    And we have not even arrived at her military issues yet. I’ll skip them for another post, and move on to the Criminal Justice Consultant part of her “c.v.” (which, frankly, is completely unlike any other c.v I’ve ever seen within academe.) This is page 12 and 13, for those who are following this saga…Oh hell, you go look for yourself. I’m tired. She talks about investigating CIA-trained South American paramilitary members (in Alaska), Palestinian generals (also in Alaska), Irish Republican Army officers (also in Alaska…who knew?), carrying a weapon, wearing a wire, conducting covert surveillance, and doing all this while working in “counterintelligence” as a “consultant” to the FBI and the US Department of Justice. She says she was recruited by them because of her skills as a radio and tv reporter.

    Mars, how does her CV look to you now? You believe the FBI hires TV reporters to do covert counterintelligence work, to “penetrate circles” (her words), against these sorts?


    Bob Bateman

    1. Mars Ultor

      “I won’t be engaging you.”

      I am quite relieved, as I rather doubt that you are my type.

      So, as far as she knew, Arabic, Farsee, and Pushtu or any other related language were not being taught at the Defense Language Institute during this time period. She was in her 20s at the time, maybe she didn’t know all that there was to know.

      Regarding the Kara Kirghiz rescue operation, read up on it before you pontificate. I gave a couple of sources earlier today. Also, there is no reference to a “U.S. Navy Hospital Ship Hope” in her CV. She lists organizations some of the organizations that participated in the effort:

      U.S. Navy
      Hospital Ship Hope
      Tolstoy Foundation
      International YMCA
      Ford Foundation
      Cultural Survival, Inc.

      You conjoined two separate items in a list of items, spectacular evidence of what a careless researcher you are. As many may recall, the Hospital Ship Hope was run by an NGO. And, so what if her memory had been faulty on an insignificant detail like the name of one naval vessel? It was 25 or 30 years ago. It could have been the good ship Lollipop for all any rational person would care.

      “Further, she skips one detail which I found amazing: Who Paid for This?” Did it occur to you that Dudley-Flores might not have been privy to funding information? And, why would such minutia need to be included in a CV? Maybe she’ll tell us all about it if she ever writes a book about it.

      “How are we doing so far Mars?” Very silly, very nitpicky. I suppose you’re one of those people who agonizes over whether “anal retentive” is spelled with or without a hyphen.

      You don’t know anything about her master’s in anthropology. Her work was in using multispectral remote sensing data from air and space to identify sites of archaeological interest. This expertise gave her a technical background that she thought would be valuable to the intelligence community and would be an avenue for a direct commission. She has occasionally spoken of people she knew in the Defense Mapping Agency in those days, including a rather eccentric geodesist.

      A lot of, but not all, work of value gets published. So, she decided to shut down KVAD and hand it to the United Nations. So what? Why don’t you go find out what the UN did with it? Maybe they used it later in the Balkans or in Rwanda. By then, ahe was focusing on her doctoral studies and had other things to do. You know, I had an idea 30 years ago that I’m just now getting arond to forming a research project around. It’s probably going to be my magnum opus. I just had to wait until I got smart enough to figure out what to do with the idea.

      “Mars, is this provable?” Yes, it is. I’ve seen the files. She kept the originals.

      I worked with Dudley-Flores,and several other people, including a SPAWAR guy, on the “Needle-in-a-Haystack Analysis of SIGINT Archives For Proximal Real-Time Response.” It was a real proposal. It included the work of an Italian mathematician. What is wrong with writing proposals? We also wrote a couple for NASA, one of which they gave a very high rating, but NASA doesn’t get a lot of funding for microsocial research, and it’s going to bite them in the butt on a human planetary mission.

      You don’t need to have served in the United States Information Agency or have been a member of the Foreign Service to belong to either the Public Diplomacy Alumni Association or the Foreign Service Association of Northern California. I am a member of both. But, you do have to have participated in significant foreign project. For Dudley-Flores, it was being a known quantity on the Kara Kirghiz project.

      I took the Foreign Service written exam with Dudley-Flores, as did a number of my classmates, and we took the tests in California, so you’re wrong about that. Additionally, the Foreign Service conducted the first round of oral interviews in California. Again and again, you just have no idea what you are talking about.

      “But because I have an IQ over 90.” Is this provable?

      I was turned off by the recruitment process and I elected not to pursue the Foreign Service after passing the written exam. Dudley-Flores thought she could offer some constructive criticisms of the process. Oh, cripes, let’s not try to change things for the better! So she wrote a paper at the behest of its editor that didn’t get published in the Foreign Service Journal. Big deal. I’ve got a few unpublished papers sitting in a drawer, too, and I daresay any academic does. So what?

      As for her activities with law enforcement in Alaska, just because you don’t know the story doesn’t mean it’s not true. She was plugged into a lot of the state’s social networks, and her contacts were useful to certain federal agencies. You haven’t told me anything that I didn’t hear straight from Marilyn Dudley-Flores herself ten years ago. I’ve also seen enough of the documents that she’s retained to believe what she says. But, you don’t have to believe it. That doesn’t bother me.

      Some parts of our lives are “on the books” and some parts are “off the books;” some things are easier to prove than others. You mean you didn’t realize that?

      You are definitely not my type.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Apologies again Mars, for some inexplicable reason this comment was automatically pushed into the spam queue, where I often find other comments that contain no links whatsoever and no advertisements for products.

  35. RYP

    I am picking up strange vibes from “Max Ultor”‘s choice of response.

    Yeah I get it, I am idiot, you dislike McFate and the mere thought that you or sorry “Max Ultor” is being put under scrutiny is uh “manifestly irresponsible”. OK sure no problem we all strive for manifest responsibility.

    But McFate (rhymes with “hate”) did not invent the Human Terrain System, nor did she provide the high level grease that got it from zero to 120 million in funding in just a few months. The COIN manual is not a peer reviewed academic paper…and as I pointed out she is a manager not a social scientist assigned to the field…so what’s your point? Sure you er sorry Dudley Flores has published more papers, but then again that’s why they paid you/her the big bucks.

    I am just a curious bystander watching the bar fight. John Stanton is the fellow that wrote the piece, I have my pathetic and unreliable sources but I have yet to form an opinion or generate much interest. But oh mighty “Max Ultor” you seem to be wearing your angry pants a little too tight for someone who that insists that you, sorry Max Ultor er sorry Dudley-Flores was “the only real social scientist there”. Really? If so the HTS ship seems to running a little light on high powered social scientists.

    You may prefer to use ontology to defend your position (which appears to be identical to exactly what Dudley Flores would write to defend herself) but I pick up more from your choice of language, defense and generic rebuttals as being exactly what the aggrieved person would say.

    The HTS is an open source program, you are a civilian why not just lay your cards out on the table? Call my bluff, Its a slow day and I could use the abuse.

    1. Mars Ultor

      You seem to be in a total meltdown, devolving into writing absolute gibberish.

      My name is not “Max.” I believe that Max is the owner of this forum. Nor am I Marilyn Dudley-Flores, although I have worked with her for years. If what I write sounds like what she might write, perhaps it is because we are both scientists. If it comforts you to think that I am Dudley-Flores, I don’t mind, and in fact, please do so. Not only does it amuse me, as I am sure that it will amuse Marilyn, but I find it typical of the delusions and limited thought processes on the other side of this debate.

      I also find curious the lengths to which a “curious bystander” will go in his attempts to bait me, as an agent provocateur would. How puerile. Not even a good try.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        If I may, without betraying any confidentiality. I have conversed with Mars via email, and he has a male name. I would not expect Dr. Dudley-Flores to go online and steep herself in every vicious argument that she finds about herself (if anything because it would be subjecting herself to further abuse), but I would suspect that a friend might feel motivated to do so. Mars has provided some very critical counterpoints in this discussion, and I am glad to see him participate.

  36. RYP

    :))) Speak the truth or be gone. I am not on either side of this “debate” but I enjoy this bizarre parade of concerned anonymous sources. Defend your friend/yourself or get in line behind all the other masked players.

    Until then you are just another freak in the HTS sideshow

    1. Hank

      Don’t answer him, Mars. Let him have his last silly word and maybe he’ll leave.

    2. Mars Ultor

      A freak? Yes, I suppose I am. I suppose all scientists are freaks in the eyes of the least enlightened laymen. We are to modern society what witches were to medieval society, except that captains of industry have learned to profit from us and generals of armies have armed themselves with deadlier weapons devised by us. But even so, the occasional witch must still be burned. What has happened to Dr. Dudley-Flores is not such a rare thing; there are a number of very capable scientists who have been chased out of the HTS program. It happens in other places, too. I don’t see that it will ever stop, until human nature changes, or at least that part of our nature that makes us hate what we fear, and fear what we don’t understand, which is almost everything. I think that more than anything, what makes us freaks is that what we don’t understand is fun for us to try to understand. But, despite the risk of persecution, our lives would not be well-spent if we did not do the things that no one else can do. Even though some of our work brings new perils to humanity, it is we who move our species forward.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        I think Mike was addressing RYP — this comment threading thing is nowhere near as wonderful as WordPress thinks it is. Yet I am afraid to turn it off, worried that it might remix the comments here and creating more confusion.

  37. Maximilian Forte

    Just for clarity, since reading this thread, and its multiple internal threads can be confusing.

    (1) I approved a lengthy rebuttal from Mars Ultor only comments ago, in response to the allegations made against Dudley-Flores above by one person called “Concerned.” (moderation is on only for posts with multiple links within them, sorry, it’s automatic and I have been away all day.)

    (2) I also traced the IP of “Concerned” to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

    1. JAFO

      (2) I also traced the IP of “Concerned” to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.


      I’m a few blocks away from the building HTS sits in so that means my IP will show up as Ft. LW KS as well.

      As will any “hit” from the several thousand (5000-6000?) other people on this post between all the Green Suiters (military), DA Civilians and contractors on this post.

      FWIW, I’ve got no dog in this fight.

      I’d like to see the concept of HTS actually put to use and work to benefit soldiers like myself however sometimes an organization becomes so weighted down by toxic behavior (past and present) as well as negative image (internally and externally) that it simply needs to be killed off as it it is no longer effective.

      Sort of like when a military unit suffers too many combat losses, all at once and/or in a bad way.

      You stand it down, case the colors, close off the books and scatter the survivors across a wide number of other units.

      When the institutional memory of how bad it was has faded enough (a decade?) you can stand it back up and get it rolling again.

      My two cents with this and with many other defense contracting programs is this:

      A huge part of the problem in these cases is that inflated salaries feeds and over inflates already excessive egos, which then draws in people with inflated resumes (and often little serious skill).

      Then you end up with too many fragile ego’ed primadonnas who are “all show and no go” and too few folks who are sufficiently “tactically and technically proficient” and motivated to do the work.

      To much internal friction then grinds the organization apart as surely as 10 pounds of sand in a crankcase destroys a motor.

      All this friction comes from cock-measuring… oops… I mean resume comparing and from those who “cant” dumping their work on the already overloaded and slowly but surely embittered people who “can”and other related issues.

      It is nearly impossible for the customer (the military) to “fire” a defense contracting organization (company) if it’s performance is sub-standard.

      The bottom line is that:
      – No contractors should ever, EVER have oversight and authority on military members…
      – Contractors should be “fill in only” and supervised and evaluated by the military…
      – Contracts need to be written to strict standards and there needs to be clear and reasonably easy means of gauging performance and if needed terminating or rebidding a contract.

      Whatever… when I retire I’m done with the Green Machine and with the US Govt’.

      General Butler had it right.

      War is a racket.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Just about the IP issue — I was not claiming it came from HTS people, but from people in the employ of the U.S. military. I cannot go through the history of this site again and indicate why that was significant at that time.

        I found the rest of your commentary to be very interesting, a good overview of what are likely to be some of the more noteworthy dynamics in place, and you would know better than I.

  38. RYP

    Mars needs to stop dancing around and state his case. I want to hear what Dudley-Flores brought to the program and why others would prevent her from delivering benefit to the Brigade Commander. I think the whole point of my article was to show the friction inside the program and I would like to know if my experience was unique or typical.

    If he wants to support/defend his friend then he needs to simply state her case. But why is it that none of these internal experts can answer that simple question of “Is the HTS program effective?”

    I will be going away since Afghanistan beckons again. But why are the HTS experts missing the art of plain speaking or even logical debate? Kudos to Max for being the responsible adult in the room.

  39. Mike the Cat

    What a jerk! Mars has stated the case exhaustively, you just don’t want to listen. It’s pointless to debate you.

  40. Maximilian Forte

    There is something I need to add, although it is a repetition of comments I made to individual posters above.

    Just for the sake of argument, and apologies to Dr. Dudley-Flores for my doing this, but let’s assume that it is in fact true that she is a lying, cheating, stealing, alcoholic dope fiend. Then how does this justify or even address:

    (a) sexual harassment — not an unproven allegation by some “nut” called Stanton, but rather substantiated with photos now;
    (b) at the very least, implied death threats; and,
    (c) apparent inaction from those in charge of HTS?

    These are the points that should concern us, and not the details of her CV.

    However, let us pursue the padded/fabricated CV angle for one more moment — if you take this approach, that of debunking her record, then you also strengthen arguments against the Human Terrain System. They hired her.

    Did she lie about her record? Let’s say she did, just for the sake of argument. Who are these wonderfully skilled, astute, perceptive and qualified persons who run the program and cannot detect problems with her record, as easily as apparently Bob Bateman above could? So can anyone who lies about their background get a job with HTS? Can any of us who wish to lie get security clearances and end up in U.S. military installations? Sorry, but if this is your approach, you are adding one more indictment of HTS, and not so much Dudley-Flores.

    Note also that even Major Connable is now the target of certain barely muted smears:

    Apparently, he is implicitly alleged to have a conflict of interest: he is in the military, and wants the military to do what it is supposed to do and has done already. Amazing.

  41. Mars Ultor

    It’s OK. He’s asking new questions now, and they’re not all that bad, despite yet new attempts to bate me with his reference to “dancing” and his use of other pejoratives.

    Dr. Dudley-Flores brought to the program her strong background in quantitative methods, that is to say, mathematics, whereas most social scientists are “math challenged” compared to physical scientists, and they tend to deal instead in anecdotal and other types of qualitative data. If you look at her transcripts, she has a ton of math courses. It is math geared to pattern recognition and links in hierarchies in social structures. Furthermore, at the division echelon, a big piece the HTAT’s job was to collect HHT data from all over Afghanistan and overlap data sets, to construct a comprehensive and accurate picture of the situation in Afghanistan, and to adviss upper level military leaders. She understood the mission and she had the background to perform it. By allowing Stugis and people he coopted to run amok, HTS management and military leaders have plucked out their eyes.

    It was not Dudley-Flores’ job to deliver benefit to the brigade commander; that is the job of an HTT. She served in an HTAT. Why Sturgis prevented her from delivering benefit to the division staff, only he can explain. It didn’t made any sense, and he has been removed from the position.

    I have heard from a person inside the HTS program that there are severe problems with more than half of the HTTs, and that all of the HTATs and the Iraq HTRAC fell apart. So, if RYP had a bad experience, my information is that it was typical.

    Another point I have heard is that since Brigade Combat Teams have become the where the rubber meets the road vis a vis the military mission, division staffs have been floundering to find a useful role. If true, this problem may have been a contributing factor in the strangeness that occurred with the 101st Airborne at Bagram. Sturgis seems to have found it quite easy to exploit the organization’s gray areas and lack of defined mission for his own aggrandizement. There may be some lessons for the Army to learn from this experience, but I don’t see how they can if they don’t debrief Dudley-Flores. And, that won’t happen.

    “Is the HTS program effective?” All that I have heard is that it is not. It is the worst managed program that I have ever heard of. If Ed Wood had been an Army program manager rather than a filmmaker, he would have made HTS. Call it “Plan 9 From Leavenworth.” It is also hugely expensive compared to other alternatives that ought to be considered and deployed, as Major Connable has discussed.

  42. RYP


    Somebody opened a window and I smell fresh air. Thank you and it appears that we have similar experiences or opinions from different vantage points. I will say it again I am not here to support or disparage Dudley Flores (because there is no shortage of “he said/she said” going around inside the HTS program but because I would like to think that bringing these dysfunctions into a public forum will enlighten and motivate key players into enacting change and improvements. Can it be done…I have no idea. Can they try? Sure.

    And as I said before its an open source program using private citizens and reserve officers, there should be a forum for their to air their concerns before they turn into ugly events. It appears John Stanton has been the escape valve for many of these events. I was only exposed to one small peephole and I came away with serious questions.

    We all know how kindly some folks took to my immersion style article and my annoying incessant repetitive demands for clarity.

    So once again thanks Mars for the sharp jabs and thanks Max for providing the canvas for the boxing match.

    1. Mars Ultor


      All you had to do was ask these questions. I would have given to you three or four days ago. Anyway, it looks like we have achieved some closure, and I am glad of that. If you are going to Afghanistan, good luck and be safe.

      “If we do meet again, why, we shall smile; If not, why then this parting was well made.”

  43. RYP


    I will say this based on my limited experience with candidates and hires inside the HTS on the academic side. I was kind in my article when poked fun at the scientists being as “chatty as a mafia dons” But there is a definite stigma (thanks to the AAA and other groups) about working in this program. I think I compared it to movie stars doing informercials.

    The HTS program has a hard mandate for a certain type of qualification to be a social scientist. It seems that PhD and Masters level social science is what they require and Afghan experience or even language is no longer a requirement but a big plus. Its easy to see how any, repeat any ground experience would be a fast ticket into the program and even less scrutiny on other quals would be applied.

    But I wonder how many PhD level Afghan experts (with Dari , Uzbek or pashto) there are, considering how hostile the region has been since 1979 for research and study. My guess is that OGA has long since stripmined that resource.

    Anyone know how many cleared Amcits would qualify for the scientist position in Afghanistan? I only know of a handful based on their work….and they don’t work for HTS

  44. Maximilian Forte

    In case anyone misses it above, since the comment was automatically and wrongly identified as “spam” (luckily I found it), Mars posted a detailed reply to Bob Bateman’s deconstruction of Dudley-Flores’ resume — see:

    Having said that, the charges being made against Dudley-Flores here seem to me to be very much beside the point of what was presented in John Stanton’s article, which has still not been officially contradicted nor denied, and which has been further substantiated with photo evidence.

  45. Bob Bateman

    This is just too easy, and too much fun, so I’ll break my own rule and engage with the anonymous alleged academic “Mars Ultor.”

    On a sidebar: I’m teaching today/tonight, so I’ve only a moment right now and will have to address the military part of D-F’s c.v. later.

    Mars wrote: “You conjoined two separate items in a list of items, spectacular evidence of what a careless researcher you are. As many may recall, the Hospital Ship Hope was run by an NGO. And, so what if her memory had been faulty on an insignificant detail like the name of one naval vessel? It was 25 or 30 years ago.”

    The USS Consolation operated as the CIVILIAN hospital ship USS Hope…from ’60 to ’73, when it went back to the US Navy. It was decommissioned in 1975.

    Or, if you don’t believe the Navy, and your memory of little details is spotty, just check with Project Hope itself.

    Mars, did you not even look at the links I included? I had already researched this, as apparently you did not before you responded.

    “As many may recall” indeed. Do a little research of your own next time, eh “Mars.” There was no ship Hope at the time of this alleged event. She made it up. Period.

    And as for the US Navy supporting the operation? With what, and for cripes sake, WHY would the Navy be involved in an operation taking place thousands of miles from the sea? I’m willing to bet that she completely made that up too. Shall we place a bet Mars? Say $100? That the US Navy was not operating “in support” of Ms. Dudley-Flores. Burden of proof, for the $100, is of course upon you. But I’ve already demonstrated that one part of her c/v is a lie/fabrication.

    Are you so blinded by personal connections that my legitimate queries completely miss you? Who paid for it? Who flew the mission? Where did they fly from, and to? Or even something as simple as the date when this occurred. All of those things would be checkable.

    D-F attempts to make it seem that she was in charge, or at least at the epicenter, of this alleged event. (I have not been able to find any news stories on this event, for the simple reason that those basic issues of who, what, when, where are not listed on D-F’s c/v…as I pointed out. So I am now going to start calling it, and her role, “alleged.”)

    Mars, are you saying that you put UNpublished material into your own c/v? I’ve never, ever, seen a scholar try and take credit for unpublished, unvetted, and indeed unseen non-publications. But then I’m a historian. Perhaps our part of the social sciences has different standards than does your part.

    “I suppose you’re one of those people who agonizes over whether “anal retentive” is spelled with or without a hyphen.”

    Well, only in my published work. At which point I just pick up my OED, find the right page, check it and move on. Don’t you proofread yourself in the things that you publish?

    Which, I suppose, is assuming that you are an academic of some sort, and that you have published something. (Though your use of Google Scholar suggests otherwise.)

    Mars wrote: “I took the Foreign Service written exam with Dudley-Flores, as did a number of my classmates, and we took the tests in California, so you’re wrong about that. Additionally, the Foreign Service conducted the first round of oral interviews in California. Again and again, you just have no idea what you are talking about.”

    Which suggests, Mars, that perhaps you need to go back to school and take a reading comprehension course. I did not say that you can’t take the tests in California. I said that there is nothing run by the States Department called “the Training and Testing Process” in California.

    Actually, here is exactly what I wrote: “There IS NO “Foreign Service Training and Testing process” that you can be a part of in California. There is only the Foreign Service Exam, given several times a year, by the State Department. It’s a two part exam, and it is a monster, let me assure you. Part one is written, and that’s not bad if you’re smart and have a degree in appropriate areas. If you pass that you get invited to part two. Part two is a full-day live role-playing exercise observed by FSOs, capped with personal interviews conducted by FSOs, and then an immediate decision.

    Did you not understand that? Testing occurs nationwide. But she phrased it as a single thing, a single process, “Foreign Service training and testing process”…which does not exist. There is only the testing process in California, and you’re not eligible for Foreign Service training until you are invited to become an FSO. Or are you claiming that you went through some sort of training program run by the State Department in California? Please, do tell.

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Bob let me ask you a question directly, since I have been raising this in more general posts above: assuming you are perfectly correct…so what? We’re not here to hire Dudley-Flores, HTS already did that itself. Presumably they were impressed by her record, arranged whatever security clearances are needed, examined her background, etc.? So I am assuming she has already been scrutinized and not found wanting — otherwise, HTS has another mismanagement and incompetence issue to answer for.

      The key point for me is, why is this relevant to the story that was posted? Is it that by going after the person who, as the photos alone suggest, was targeted for sexual harassment and implicit death threats, that it somehow undermines the credibility of what we see before our very eyes? Is it that someone who lies about a CV, as you purport to prove, that person must lie about everything else? That would not be a logical argument, am I right?

      What I read here, true or not, makes me extremely uncomfortable, because as I said before it resembles those cases where a rape victim is dragged through the public mud, revealed to be a shoplifter, drug addict, “slut”, “welfare queen,” etc., and yet nonetheless she was a rape victim in fact. When one does what you are doing, you are adding another layer of abuse, and it becomes part of the abuse directed at that person.

      To take the point further — I have written harshly critical things about McFate. However, if it ever came out that while at HTS, or wherever, she was subjected to sexual harassment and death threats, I would immediately condemn that. I would not say: oh yeah, well she was a corporate spy once, so, you know…

      1. NV

        HTS does not direct hire. BAE does. Blame BAE for the problems on hiring. HTS is BAE’s client. BAE is providing bad product in order to fill numbers. Is this HTS’s fault, or BAE’s?

    2. Mars Ultor

      I just did a Google Scholar search on myself, and more than 30 distinct publications show up, including two books. I have another book in copy-editing (they’re the people who worry about hyphens, so I don’t have to), plus I’ve mapped out a project of 20 symposium papers to present over the next six years, not to mention that there may be invited papers and offers to coauthor that may crop up, and I have two more books in advanced planning.

      So, I need to move on. If I linger in this forum much longer, it’s going to impact my production. The only reasons I have put forth this effort in recent days is that a dear colleague and a damn fine researcher has been wronged, and that an Army that is incapable of properly handling what should have been a small matter is in the long term probably incapable of adequately defending the nation. On the basis of the Bagram affair, I would advise every American to arm himself or herself, for I expect the Taliban and Al Qaeda to overrun Fort Leavenworth sooner rather than later.

      Meanwhile, unscientific people will continue to think unscientifically, and I freely confess that it is beyond my power to change that.

      Ciao for now.

  46. Bob Bateman

    By the way Mars, did you not read the contents of the Duke University archival holdings that you sent the link to? All that does is confirm that he had correspondence with D-F between 1984 and 1987.

    It also, curiously, says nothing about running an evacuation from Afghanistan to Turkey.

    And what the Harvard Crimson article described is more in line with my questioning…

    She wrote, ““Chief Negotiator (with Dr. Louis Dupree). The rescue and relocation of about 1,000 Kara Kirghiz Central Asians from the Wakhan Corridor of Afghanistan to the Turkey-Iran border country, among the Kurds near Lake Van, effectively preventing their genocide at the hands of invading Soviets.”

    Now that makes it look like, well, they were possibly going to be massacred by the Soviets. I asked, “Now you may be scratching your head, as I was, saying, “whaaaa?” I mean, well, it’s 1979, the Soviets are invading…and they’re not coming that way at all…( at least initially) See a map of the area. Which then begs the question, given that the Wakhan corridor is all border, why not just walk the 5 or 6 miles into Pakistan? Why take them to…Turkey?”

    But I made a mistake. You see, I believed D-F when she said she was saving these people from the Soviets by getting them out of Afghanistan, presumably when the Soviets invaded. But now we see the truth. The year was 1982, and these people were not in Afghanistan at all. They had, in fact, walked over into Pakistan. They were not under threat from the Soviets, because they were in an entirely different country already. But the way D-F deceptively writes it, she was helping get them out of Afghanistan. She doesn’t say a word about them already being refugees. She doesn’t say a word about them having been living in Pakistan for 2-3 years already, WHERE THEY WERE NOT SUBJECT TO GENOCIDE AT THE HANDS OF THE SOVIETS.

    The way she wrote that part of her story was completely deceptive, to the point of lying. The sum total of what that article says (for those who have not seen it) about D-F (then Dudley-Rowley), is this:

    “Indeed, it is because of the AP stories that Qul and his two sons have received an invitation from the Institute for Alaskan Affairs, a non-profit group in Fairbanks, to visit Alaska during the last two weeks in March and discuss the possibility of settling there.
    Marilyn Dudly-Rowley, who heads the institute, says she read the AP dispatches in he local newspaper a year ago and got in touch with Dupree. She has since won the promise from Alaska’s two Senators and one Representative to consider sponsoring the bills that would allow the Kirghiz to come to America. Dudly-Rowley said the State Department recently issued visitors’ visas to Qul and his two sons allowing them to come to Alaska at the end of March. Part of the two week visit will be spent talking to land experts about the best locations for the Kirghiz to settle. Qul would then visit those sites.”

    Hardly the same thing as what she talks about in her c.v., and certainly, perhaps more happened later, but there is nothing in the story which talks about her being a key negotiator. She didn’t get them into the US. And who was she negotiating with? All those things in her c.v.? You pointed to this article, Mars, and said it showed her role.

    Well what it shows is that she called some congressmen, and they didn’t do anything, and this is all before any evacuation. Which is hardly the basis for a scholar’s c.v. entry. I’ve still yet to find a shred of evidence about what she says she accomplished.

    No, it’s still puffery at this point. I am more and more convinced that Ms. Dudley-Flores expands with imagination upon every possible item she can.

    Bob Bateman

  47. Bob Bateman


    Go back to the base article. Read it again… (seriously, not being snide), examine it as a journalist.

    Now, I write on journalism ethics for the Committee for Concerned Journalists (U-Missouri funded.) So I spend a lot of time applying a historian’s skepticism to writing. The key difference twixt history and journalism, of course, is that historians can’t use anonymous sources. But good journalists don’t either.

    Sure, one or two, in the course of a major story. But in this article, 100% of the assertions are phrased, “sources say” and “according to sources”, while some of the comments (such as conversations between D-F and one other person, who is the accused) can only logically be applied to D-F. In other words, she, or her friends such as Mars, *are* the sole sources for the whole article.

    This makes it less clear.

    If I am a police-beat reporter, I pick up the police log and see what crimes have been conducted, then I go and research the story. Until the police arrest somebody, I’m not even sure that a crime has occurred. In this case, however, what we are seeing is a situation where IN ADVANCE of any legal action (such as an arrest), a reporter has been given, and published, information which makes some really damning allegations. And they’re not even phrased as “accusations”, they’re stated as facts.

    “Dudley‐Flores and fellow HTT female members were also subjected to sexual harassment and abuse by Milan Sturgis and his cohorts.”

    No sources there. And as there has been no completed investigation, no criminal charges filed, no arrests, nothing, this looks suspicious to me. SO, given that it seems that 100% of the accusations file back to D-F, but none of them is substantiated, it makes sense for all of us to examine the nature of the person making the accusations.

    If Bernie Madhoff made an accusation against you, alleging that you swindled him, BEFORE his swindle was publically known, and then tried to pin all his losses on you, would you not think it prudent to examine who this Bernie Madhoff fellow was?

    I’ve exposed dozens of fake veterans in the past. Hell, I even wrote a book about one notorious case, and I’m working on another about the longer history of fake veterans. So I am particularly attuned to things like resumes, and what they say, imply, and try to say without saying. D-F’s looked fishy to me, all the more so the more I look into it.

    In the military side of my life you trust people to tell the truth. But the first time that they don’t tell the truth, you cut them off at the knees. It cannot be any other way, with lives at stake. I doubt that whoever vetted Ms. D-F checked this closely. But to my eyes, it appears that she has a long-established pattern of telling things which were not true about herself, her accomplishments, and her life. This, in the case of what has been alleged, matters. If a witness has a history of purjury, it matters. For good reason I think.

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Hello Bob,

      one of my questions was whether one can make a logical argument that someone who has lied about CV, should also be assumed to be telling lies about other matters. I can make it more extreme of course: can we assume that the person who continually lies about “pressing engagements” to avoid meeting with unpleasant colleagues after work, is also a liar when screaming, “Help! That man just stole my wallet”?

      You write:
      “SO, given that it seems that 100% of the accusations file back to D-F, but none of them is substantiated, it makes sense for all of us to examine the nature of the person making the accusations. If Bernie Madhoff made an accusation against you, alleging that you swindled him, BEFORE his swindle was publically known, and then tried to pin all his losses on you, would you not think it prudent to examine who this Bernie Madhoff fellow was? ”

      It makes sense in the sense that it is commonly done, as I noted, in media reports, in courtrooms (“this goes to character”). It’s a tactic that has been rendered legitimate by certain cultural conventions. Lots of other illogical things are too. All I am saying is let’s question that approach, and see if it can stand firmly after being cross-examined itself, and so far, I am not seeing a firm posture.

      Your Madoff example is interesting — a swindler who accuses someone of swindling. There is a certain symmetry there that would justify your question. How about Madoff the swindler saying that (let’s assume he is Jewish, I don’t know his background) when he walks in the streets people spit at him and use anti-semitic slurs. Do I automatically assume he is lying, because he is a known financial con artist?

      What I can say, is that it is possible the person is lying. However, that can’t be proven by simply deconstructing a resume and generalizing from that to everything else. If I were a judge, I would probably say that as compelling as is the case you present, it is not sufficient.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        P.S.: The missing piece in your critique is a refutation of the authenticity of the photographs, because they back up the allegations and manifest them to be facts. Sources don’t need to say anything now, we have visual documentation. Sources can all be liars with falsified CVs: if the photos stand, the allegations are more than that, they are now facts.

  48. Bob Bateman

    Max, check your ‘trash’ bin. I’ve posted something and I suspect (based upon what you said about links) that it’s sitting there.

  49. RYP


    Don’t know if this helps but much of the civilian recruiting is outsourced and these companies have a financial incentive to meet the rapacious demand for Masters to PhD level social scientists with regional and language expertise. BAE had subs working the process who as I mentioned before were quite aggressive in contacting and recontacting interested parties.

    As for someone fudging a CV to get a high paying job…(and these WERE (past tense) high paying jobs) Get outta here. Never happen :)))

    1. Maximilian Forte

      “As for someone fudging a CV to get a high paying job” — sure, no problem with admitting that can happen…how come Bob Bateman seems to have picked up on the flaws rather quickly, and HTS did not?

  50. Bob Bateman

    Oh, by the way, meant to mention this a while ago…

    Mata la Vaca means “The Cow Kills”

    Mate la Vaca means “Kill the Cow”

    I am not sure if you think that these two things matter. Also, do you know about the “More Cowbell” meme? It comes from a Saturday Night Live skit. It is an american pop culture touchstone.

    On my iPhone, I have an application called “More Cowbell”. Mine was free, there are several dozen different versions, just for the iPhone. My friends and I say, “I need more cowbell!” all the time. No, I am not kidding. Check that link.

    Which raises the question: Did D-F know about this common phrase? If not, did she perhaps misunderstand what is a popular and common joke line (like “Where’s the Beef?” once was in the 1980s), and believe that it was a reference to herself?

    Did the author of the article not know about this either? (It’s probably a generational thing. If he’s older, he might not have. I’m 41, and might be at the outer edge age-wise, to know/participate in this meme.)

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      No, sorry, that does not work. First the Spanish need not be impeccable when it is communicated by one Anglophone to another — you are being very fastidious here, but also a bit unreasonable.

      Second, the images, together — I repeat, together — are what produce the context of interpretation. One image adds weight to another. Cow bell, vaca, fat woman. They are not to be isolated from one another, simply because the people who posted them obviously meant them to be taken together.

      I know the SNL skit. It simply doesn’t matter what the provenance is, what matters is how it is employed *in context*.

  51. Bob Bateman

    “More Cowbell”, even in quotes, generates more than 900,000 hits. Consider that.

    Oh, I also just now noticed that while the author (in your comments) realized it was not a midget in that image…it is also not a stripper so far as I can tell. I do not know the basis of the image, but every female in the picture is clothed. It’s the guy who is shirtless. Is *he* the person being referred to as a “stripper” by Ms. D-F on her website? I cannot tell.

    And now I note these lines: “Former US Army National Guard Lieutenant Dudley‐Flores”

    She was not a lieutenant, she was a private.

    “was the first certified woman combat mountaineer in the Alaska’s US Army National Guard”

    The US Army does not have, and has never had, a qualification known as “combat mountaineer.”

    “and has hundreds of hours of small arms training.”

    “Hundreds” means at least 200. In Basic Training you get one week. (Only infantry men, as in males, in Advanced Individual Training, get a lot more than that.) In ROTC, in the first two years, you might, *might*, get one day. She never went past the first two years of ROTC. The was that this sentence is constructed, it makes it appear that she has hundreds of hours of MILITARY small arms training, which is not possible for a clerk/supply specialist/public affairs person. Just carrying a weapon is not the same as training on the use of a weapon.

    “She also worked in Pakistan during the USSR’s occupation of Afghanistan helping refugees.”

    This line has also been refuted. Not least by D-F herself in her resume.

    All of which begs the question, WHO was the source for all of these untruths about Ms. Dudley-Flores’s background. Who told these untruths to the reporter. Certainly we should not assume that he made them up. They must come from one of his “sources.” If the “sources” are so wrong about the basics of her biography, how should we trust them for the rest of the elements of the story?

    More things to chew on intellectually, eh?

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Well, then we are back to the photos. “More cowbell” can generate a trillion results…that is actually immaterial and out of the context of this situation. I think you want it to mean all sorts of other things.

      Sure, HTATs need more cowbell when they perform Rock, otherwise their guitars dominate. Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

  52. Bob Bateman

    Who is the source that people called Ms. D-F “cow”? I think much of it comes down to that question.

    We have “more cowbell” signs up in my local neighborhood bar. There are, occasionally, women who are overweight in the bar. Are the signs aimed at them?

    Yes, context matters above all. But the context must be demonstrated and supported with evidence. Accusation does not equal evidence. And the article, as near as I can tell, is all about accusation, and is very light on the evidence.

    In re the Anglophone aspect, upon what basis do you assume that the author of the dry-board list was an anglophone? Only two members of the team, other than DF, are mentioned in the article or the images. One, this Sturgis guy. The other, his apparent “crony”, LT Jose Perez. I don’t know Sturgis’ ethnic background, but one can make a moderately safe inference that the mentioned LT Jose Perez is from a spanish-speaking background. The threat, according to the article, was written by “an active duty lieutenant.” This would seem to be the later-cited Perez. You have knowledge that Perez does not speak/read/write Spanish? (And would therefore mangle the language, as an “Anglophone.”)

    Bob Bateman

  53. Maximilian Forte

    I believe that “the cow kills” is “la vaca mata”. It is years since I have practiced Spanish, so beware.

    “Mate la vaca” is typically the polite, imperative form. “Mata la vaca” I think would likely be understood by any Spanish speaker as between friends and as an instruction. It was on a TO DO list (see the top of the board?)

    The cow kills, on a to do list? That makes no sense.

    Your bar is not his base. Wrong context. One image in your bar is not comparable to a concatenation of images with a shared motif, either.

    The context of the images is formed by the chain of images themselves. They produce a type of sentence. But I see your point, because we can understand context at different levels. Then the context of the images is alleged inter-personal conflict — it would seem hard to deny that much, that there was inter-personal conflict. That adds to my point then: the images produce an unspoken sentence “uttered” in the context of inter-personal strife, and are therefore meant to threaten and denigrate.

    So “the cow kills” and “cowbell as SNL” certainly seem even more remote as possibilities now.

  54. Bob Bateman


    You’re missing a logical step.

    The apparent provider of the “evidence”…all of it, seems to be D-F herself.

    If she has a history of deception, as her cv seems to note, this becomes problematic.

    If she is the sole source who says she recieved that image, printed out, on her desk…an image widely available on the internet, how does one ascertain that she did not print it herself? Given her issues of truth-telling, this obtains.

    If she is the sole source for the assertion that people called her “cow” (by the way, is that not “weight discrimination” not “geneder discrimination” Max?), how are we to confirm that this is actually a true statement.

    The article, by Mr. Stanton, as was demonstrated, contained a host of inaccuracies about her bio, but inaccuracies which seem in line with the things somebody who is disingenous with statements about her bio, which suggest that D-F is the point of origin. All sources were unnamed, of course, which is why I’m an academic not a journalist I suppose. But for criminal accusations (and sexual harrassment, such as is asserted, not alleged, in the article, is a crime) are made blatently, without evidence.

    Here I come to the core. As I said, I know this Sturgis fellow not at all. I’m not a part of HTS. I don’t know the LT, or anyone involved. But in the United States, there is supposed to be a presumption of innocence, no? I mean, it’s sort of one of our core precepts. This article, using anonymous sources, and then flat out assertions of crimes committed by US citizens, in the absence of evidence…well wow. That, actually, is material for a civil suit based upon the US Constitution as near as I can tell. (Then again, I’m only a historian, not a lawyer.)

    But the line is there: “Dudley‐Flores and fellow HTT female members were also subjected to sexual harassment and abuse by Milan Sturgis and his cohorts.”

    No “alleged”, no “sources say”, etc. (Which, of course, is a veneer applied to most of the rest of the article.)

    Frankly Max, given the text, (not to go all Deridian on ya) it appears that D-F is actually the SOLE source for the article. The use of the plural, by the author, appears dishonest as well. Which brings us to the question…if she is the sole source of the information, the sole source for the “cow” assertion (that people called her a cow), the sole source saying that she got a printout of a widely available internet image, and given the dishonesty and inclination to fantasism she repeatedly demonstrated in the academic parts of her c/v, does this story actually represent a truth?

    Max, your use of the rapist analogy was disingenous (I think you know that). Rather one should propose an analogy of a break-in to a house in a populated neighborhood, in broad daylight. Ms. D-F, if her assertions are true, would certainly have dozens of witnesses that the reporter could have contacted to confirm elements, on the record. Surely there is a pissed off private that saw some LT or the Sturgis guy, or one of the other accused, say “cow” about Ms. D-F? RIght?

    Or somebody else saw the image?

    Or somebody else heard her confronted, one-on-one, by the LT? (Yea, umm, no, she or he would have to be the source for that.)

    The images, if she is the sole source who says that she saw them, don’t constitute a part of a context, particularly if the “cow” assertion is, in fact, invented.

    Consider that Max. What if she makes up the comment that people called her “cow.” How do the images fall in place then? They are no longer part of a context at all, are they?

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      I am glad that you are finally disputing the source and veracity of the photographs, I was hinting that would be another approach to take and then in another comment I felt as if I was practically handing you the argument. That’s right, those are valid questions, and knowing next to nothing about the technology, I cannot guess as to how one would go about proving that the photos were taken at a particular time, when she was in Afghanistan. Without that evidence, what we would need is for others to come forward — in a formal setting (any one can fake an identity on the Internet, to some extent anyway) — and swear that they too had seen these images on the base.

      Calling someone a cow is indeed gender discrimination: a cow is female. Had she been called simply “fat” and nothing else, then maybe you might have had a case.

      There was absolutely nothing disingenuous of my rape example, it is in fact very pertinent. There is a persistent pattern in North America of disputing the victim when the victim is female and where gender violence is involved. I do not see anything here that tells me this has changed, or that this is an exception.

      Otherwise, I fundamentally agree: we need to have the story verified or corroborated by other sources. Absolutely. I did not spend even a second in double checking any of the items you deconstructed in her CV, I was just interested in seeing that it happened, and that someone could make an argument that it was a case of misrepresentation. One has to allow that possibility at least, but of course, until you know more, you cannot be certain of your own conclusions either.

      But ultimately, what I often do on this blog — and this is not meant to sound sinister or underhanded, because it is done openly — is to play a game, a game with knowledge, and not one that I always win I am afraid. The game here was to contrast two different stories (stories in all sense of the term, and in Trinidad “story” is also a synonym for “lie”), of two apparent female victims, both in Afghanistan, both in the Human Terrain System, from roughly the same time as well. When you look at the newspaper reports about the attack on Paula Loyd (or the awful little concoction put together by HTS itself on its website, that borders on Disney), you see that virtually no facts are presented that are independently verified or corroborated by parties other than the men accompanying Loyd, and even then it seems that only two men are mentioned as actually having said a sentence or two to the media, while another, was sent off to court and never heard from. There is not even a fraction of the detail presented that we find in Stanton’s piece. Yet everything was taken, by most readers who ever commented on the story, in any venue, at face value. Who says Paula Loyd was attacked by an Afghan? Who says she was attacked by just one? Who says that it happened in a market place in some small village? Who says anything if not always the same sources, who all happen to be partisans of one side of a military conflict. Not a single journalist has gone to verify the story in that village. Not one single Afghan witness has ever been quoted.

      Yet there was an absolute storm of protest in sympathy for Loyd. You come to this story now, and look at the vast difference. I did not create that fact, but as part of a game I did create the conditions for that difference to emerge, without authoring the difference.

    2. Mike the Cat

      Talk about sucking all the oxygen out of the room! Talk about puffery. Puff, puff, puff, Bob! Your paid duties can’t be very challenging if you have all this time on your hands to write this stuff. Instead of crawling all over some total stranger’s life, try getting one of your own.

  55. Maximilian Forte

    This was very interesting, because apart from what I raised on this blog, in fact in comments above, I had not seen anyone else raise questions like the ones below before today:

    Last November, HTT Anthropologist Paula Loyd was attacked by an alleged Taliban member while conducting interviews with locals in Maywand Afghanistan.
    She was doused with gasoline and set aflame. (here)
    She passed away from the injuries in January
    The perpetrator was apprehended and then shot dead by one of Loyd’s associates.
    For those not familiar with HTT, it is a program instituted by the US military for the purpose of understanding local culture.

    When I first learned of this incident, there were many puzzling questions.
    Why did she put herself in the position of being attacked in the first place?
    A person of her background surely would know the risks involved with a woman speaking openly in public with local Islamic residents, particularly men.
    Was she properly attired?
    Did she have an escort?
    Most of the accounts I’ve read put her with a second person, but it is not clear if the other was an armed escort, an interpreter or if that person was even nearby.
    The shooter is identified by name and as an associate, but was away from the scene “chatting” with some US soldiers.
    It seemed from first accounts that she was blatantly ignoring the risks and brought it on herself, which can’t be discounted but yet it’s hard to draw firm conclusions from a scenario such as this without more information.
    Further reading on the subject reveals animosity between US military and the social scientists involved in the program.
    The HTT members are apparently viewed with disdain by the soldiers. (here)

    The shooter Don Ayala went to trial in February and plead guilty to the charge of manslaughter. (here)

    I’d like to see the transcripts from the trial , the testimony of the witnesses, because the scenario doesn’t quite fit. Where was her escort, the shooter? Did anyone else actually witness the attack?
    The shooter said that he apprehended the attacker when the attacker ran directly towards them from the scene of the crime, but was he sure about the id? Did the shooter witness the attack?
    Because Ayala plead guilty, I don’t suppose any witnesses were called.
    Questions about this incident need to be raised because of recent events in Afghanistan regarding other HTT people.
    Death threats have been made against another female HTT member, Marilyn Dudley-Flores, and in the course of the investigation, some pretty disturbing events have come to light.
    He’s a quote from the story….
    Sources allege that through the months of November and December 2008, Flores‐Dudley and other HTT female members were deliberately put in harm’s way by Milan Sturgis — a former HTT leader ‐‐ who sent Flores‐Dudley and female HTT members in known hot areas (like Qarabagh) where the Taliban was active, and, in one instance, knowingly had them wait for seven hours on a remote airstrip for a airlift back to Bagram, AB.
    and another……
    Further, the active duty lieutenant charged with protecting Dudley‐Flores and female teammates acted with discredit by fleeing and not covering Dudley‐Flores when she was fired upon (fire incident) and; in another incident, leaving his sidearm and other arms in a Humvee while a female HTT member was inside a structure interviewing Afghans who, it was later found out, were Taliban seeking intelligence.

    Makes me wonder if Milan Sturgis was Paula’s team leader as well.

    Death Threat Tarnishes US Army Human Terrain System( here)

    The facts as stated in the various publications conflict, such as where the attack occurred and where Ayala was at the time. Maybe that will eventually get cleared up.

  56. Mike the Cat

    Just for Ss and Gs, I decided to apply Mars’ metric to Bob Bateman. I can’t find any of his publications listed in Google Scholar. Yet he must be a very famous man… he has his own Wikipedia article! Wow-wee! A legend in his own mind!

  57. Bob Bateman

    Funny, I found quite a few on “Google Scholar.” Of course a couple of those are my father, and at least one is my grandfather, and many are not related to me at all.

    However, the simple discriminator is to add in various military ranks. Add, for example, “Captain” and then try it again with “Major” and then try again with “Lieutenant Colonel”, and then use the abbreviations thereof, (CPT, MAJ, and LTC or Lt Col). You know, just for shits and grins, my anonymous little friend.

    One must also presume you have the ability to spell my name correctly.

    1. Mike the Cat

      I tried to get little Bobby to do his homework, but he wanted to blog his days away. I told him, “Keep that up and you’ll grow up to be some crummy little adjunct.” But, he never listened….

  58. Bob Bateman

    By the way, “Cat,” who are you? Or are you another brave hero who believes that the anonymous route is the way to advance discourse? “the Cat” indeed.

    How about a real, live, verifiable-as-somebody name, eh?

    Bob Bateman

    1. Mike the Cat

      I don’t mind that you point a laser on yourself and light yourself up as a target. It just shows me what a piss-poor Army officer you must be. No wonder these wars keep going on and on and on….

  59. Maximilian Forte

    Another interesting blog post on related matters, this one apparently about REV. DR. MILAN STURGIS, from Out of the Blue and into the Black (ah, Neil Young):

    Fear and Loathing in Afghanistan

    by Thomas Gangale

    For months now, the American public has heard the drumbeat of war: we need to ramp up our military presence in Afghanistan before the Taliban takes over the entire country… again. We’ve been riding around the countryside for seven years, it’s been a long ride, and the kids are asking, “Have we lost yet? Have we lost yet? Have we lost yet?”

    We have only one Army division at a time in Afghanistan, rotating in and out of country like attention-deficient tourists, waving from their humvees. Lately it’s been the 101st Airborne Division, and they seem to think that they have the situation well in hand. The countryside was quiet enough that they had to create an insurgency right inside their Joint Operations Compound–their “jock”–just to keep life interesting. Must keep the occupiers occupied. So the division’s senior staff decided to indulge in an orgy of cigars, sex discrimination, harassment, intimidation, and death threats, featuring a 500-pound stripper and presided over by a Serbian Orthodox priest.

    The Reverend Doctor came to Bagram last summer as the team leader and senior social scientist of something called the Human Terrain System (HTS) program. They call it that because their primary function is to walk all over people working in it and grind them into the terrain. One of the Reverend Doctor’s first accomplishments upon arrival was to plagiarize the work of a lower level HTS unit and present it to the Hundred and Worst as his own. Of course, all of the other lower level HTS teams stopped sending reports.

    Did this mean that the Reverend Doctor now had to do some work of his own? Not at all. Instead, he kept the senior staff of the Hundred and Worst plied with fancy cigars. In accordance with General Order One, there are no officers’ clubs, no alcohol, on US military bases in Islamic countries. Thus tobacco has become the only legal drug of choice, and on Bagram the Reverend Doctor was enterprising enough to become, in accordance with General Order One, Drug Pusher One. The colonels didn’t care that he wasn’t producing any actionable information for them as long as he gave them their stogy fixes. Hey, it won’t hurt you, and the first one is free.

    You know the sorts of things that can be done with cigars… just ask Monica Lewinsky. So here were these 20 or 30 lonely colonels, far away from home, each chomping down on the Reverend Doctor’s cigar….

    …which probably gets boring after a while. It wasn’t long before this Fun Bunch of Brass Hats was jonesing for a new thrill. So the Human Terrain Team imported a 500-pound stripper. That really got the party rolling. Rolling, rolling, rolling….

    Sources say that the Hundred and Worst actually requisitioned a 125-pound stripper, but somehow the requisition ended up as a line item in the stimulus bill, got loaded up with pork, and the result added to the bloated federal budget. Those profligate Democrats! Not to be outdone, however, Senate Republicans attached a rider to the bill, thus the 500-pound stripper was delivered to Bagram Air Base complete with a partially nude man riding on her back. When he dismounted, the colonels climbed on, usually one at a time, but sometimes not, as might be the momentary whim. Stimulus package, indeed.

    But even a 500-pound stripper can only entertain the troops for so long before she wears out. Fortunately, to keep the party lively, there were a number of female members of the HTS at hand, middle-aged and not exactly Barbie dolls, to provide fresh diversions for the Senior Officer Corps. Reverend Doctor and the Colonels hung cowbells around their necks and mooed at them, with the social scientist on the team honored with the role of the alpha cow… summa cum loudly.

    A Puerto Rican National Guard first lieutenant, usually indistinguishable from a feral teenager, got into an uncharacteristically intellectual frame of mind and launched himself on a quest to pen deathless prose, beginning his literary career on a dry erase board: “Mata la vaca.” “Kill the cow.”

    At that point, a member of Congress got wind of this indecorous military ball and stopped the music. She pulled the chief cow out of Afghanistan and back to the safety of Stateside. That didn’t save La Vaca’s job, however. The Hundred and Worst has yet to respond to the congressional inquiry, yet the Human Terrain System program office terminated her contract for “inadequate performance.” Maybe she should have jangled her cowbell louder?

    So that’s how the American Empire does it these days in Afghanistan, historically the graveyard of empires. If God is indeed on the side of the just, just whose side might that be? The symbol of Islam is the crescent moon, but the crescent is the sunlit side of the moon. We have met the Dark Side… and it is U.S.

  60. Bob Bateman

    Well Kitty, to each his own I suppose.

    I write, teach, and fight. You go fishing on obscure websites. Perhaps you might try some better bait next time? (And work in your spelling whilst doing so, eh?)

    I prefer my way. Now back to your plumbing Joe.

    Max, you really do need to install a quality filter. You’re letting in rabid republicans like little Mikey, and that doesn’t jibe with your general tenor.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      Well then that also goes contrary to the accusations that I only allow people who support my point of view to post here, and that we engage in mutual back slapping (see the comments by WOTN for example). I think this debate between the two of you has turned personal, and that it should stop since neither of you is actually adding anything new to the discussion.

      Now, how about those two new blog posts I pasted in above. Interesting?

    2. Mike the Cat

      I, a Republican? ROTFLMAO! You really aren’t very bright, are you? Did you not understand this:

      “Knowledgeable women are as big a threat to the US Army as they are to the Taliban, and they just as feared and just as hated. There is no difference between the Army and the Taliban in its views on and its treatment of women. The real war on terrorism is neither in Iraq nor Afghanistan, neither against Al Qaeda nor the Taliban, but in the United States and against its sexist, imperialist Army, against the reactionary misogynist oppressors who would roll back the societal gains that women made in the 20th century.”

      Yeah, that sounds really Republican. Rush Limbaugh talks like that every day. One wonders how you even made it as far as being a crummy little adjunct, but maybe your daddy bought it for you with a nice little endowment.

      Meanwhile, maybe you don’t have a clear idea who the hell you are. Maybe you lost yourself in these long train of military ranks, which are oh so impressive… NOT! BFD. Then you have “Bob Bateman” and “Robert Bateman.” Well, guess what? You could Google on “Tom Wolfe” and “Thomas Wolfe” and they’re two different authors. Maybe you have two people inside your head. Maybe more. There’s Bob and Robert, and Captain, Major, and Bottlecap Colonel. Or did I miss a few? Is there a Generalissimo inside your head, too? What’s next? Are you going to assemble your imaginary troops to salute you “Imperator” on the field? Or did the Wikipedia article you wrote on yourself sufficiently gratify your ego for the time being? Just who is the real Bob Bateman, and does anyone care, outside of a few unfortunate lower division students who may cower in fear of an egotistical and sadistic martinet of an adjunct.

      Now, turning from these pleasantries, Gangale’s stab at gonzo journalism is a hoot, just as I always enjoyed Hunter Thompson, may he rest in peace. Maybe we ought to send all of those “officers and gentlemen” of the 101st Airborne some Nixon masks.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Shhhh….Stop distracting Bob, he is busy working on a new line of attack against critics of his beloved HTS. He had better be a designated hitter, getting paid by the multi-million dollar HTS, or else he is one of the biggest volunteer suckers I have met.

      2. Mike the Cat

        Hey everyone! Emperor Bob’s got a domain name… named for himself!!!

        I hear he’s going to name a hospital for himself, and an airport, just like Saddam. Then there’s going to be the Bob Bateman Beltway, and someday Ft. Benning is going to be renamed Ft. Bateman.

  61. Bob Bateman


    Haven’t had time to look at that post. Just wrote you a long one on the other thread. Don’t have any ties to HTS, and in fact am more than interested in alternatives if you have any to offer. But I do recognize the need for my culture (the military part) to better understand the people we operate among, be they Somali, Ethiopian, Philippino, Korean, Japanese, Afghani, Pakistani, Guatamalan, Chilean, Iraqi, or any of the other 100 nationalities we interact with every day. I think that this is *most* pronounced in the countries where we are also fighting.

    If you think that military forces should NOT be culturally attuned and educated to interact with the cultures they live among, what is your reasoning? (Answer over there please. I can’t follow multiple threads on the same idea.)

    As for the cowardly (anonymous) Kitty who is afraid to use his real name, it is not my fault his parents put parental filters on his intertubes. He can’t find my writing, that’s his problem. Try Should be easier there.That Kitty can’t figure out that I am still on active duty and therefore can’t be anything *but* adjunct is also his problem. Perhaps when he gets to college he’ll learn the difference. Then again, I don’t know if Liberty University has adjuncts.

    Bob Bateman

  62. Maximilian Forte

    Sure, I have an alternative:

    STAY HOME. You write about sticking your muzzle into other cultures and bending them to your will as if it were some ineluctable force of nature.

    So I gave you my alternative and my solution, and now I will watch you conveniently ignore it.

  63. Bob Bateman


    There is an adage which suggests that the physician ought to address his own ills before venturing forth.

    Don’t you think you should address Canadian atrocities first? Or British ones? Or Australian ones? Between the three they are stationed in dozens of foreign countries, several without invitation. Why are you ignoring something you might have some more knowledge about before venturing into uncharted territory?

    Australia, this week, announced that it was staying as an imperialist occupying force in the country of one of their neighbors, “indefinately.” Canada deploys more hidden snipers per unit than any other force.

    Great Britain has a lieutenant who periodically dresses up as a Nazi and uses racist terms to refer to Pakistanis.

    This, by your biography, is “your house.” Might you not start at ‘home’ first? I see no commendation by you of the Canadian war crimes committed. Indeed, no apparent understanding of such on your part at all. Which, I suppose, is understandable in your sub-discipline, which is naturally rather narrowly focused intellectually.

    Bob Bateman

  64. Maximilian Forte

    Instead, you are quite wrong, and you rush to conclusions without first informing yourself. I have not spared any of the states that you have listed, quite the contrary.

    The point is that this post is about the Human Terrain System, which is an American entity. Therefore, to suddenly turn around and say: Hey, let’s look at the British, Australians, and Canadians instead — would have been quite a bizarre bit of self-distraction.

    I don’t think you know what my sub-discipline is, or even what this blog does, or you would not have been careless enough to say that it was narrowly focused intellectually.

  65. Maximilian Forte

    Bob Bateman is a Pentagon counter-blogger:

    When Bob Bateman posted these two comments,

    March 3rd, 2:18pm:

    and on March 11, 1:41pm:

    he did so from an IP that I traced directly to the Pentagon.

    So there he is, in some cubicle in the Pentagon, posting during regular working hours (although I imagine the Pentagon’s regular working hours are 24/7), coming on this blog to attack anyone who might have a critical view of U.S. military practice. Then in other posts he blames the civilians in charge, lest anyone might take a negative tone toward the troops.

    Interesting. One wonders if this is regular Pentagon practice, to counter-blog, and to blame the civilians that the Constitution demands that they answer to (a rather impolitic statement to say the least).

    1. Maximilian Forte

      One should also note above the instance I singled out of someone, “Concerned,” writing from Fort Leavenworth, with another instance found here:

      On previous occasions, I have also identified the locations of commenters on the Paula Loyd posts, who in some cases were writing from both Fort Leavenworth and Afghanistan.

    2. WTFO

      Bottlecap Bob admits to being on “active duty.” I see how “active” he has been:

      Tim Buttons said, on March 2nd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
      Bob Bateman said, on March 3rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 8:04 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 8:44 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 9:16 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 10:37 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
      Bob Bateman said, on March 4th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
      Bob Bateman said, on March 9th, 2009 at 7:28 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 9th, 2009 at 7:32 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 10th, 2009 at 9:07 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 11th, 2009 at 9:07 am
      Bob Bateman said, on March 11th, 2009 at 7:16 pm

      All of these messages were transmitted on duty days, and only three of them were outside of normal duty hours 0730-1630 (at least, that’s what was normal when I was on active duty). Another three could be excused as being transmitted during Bottlecap Bob’s lunch hour. As for the rest, I take it that he has been using government resources and/or government time to indulge his personal blogging habit. I’d say this constitutes waste and abuse. Not to mention that he is publicly attacking a civilian whom I assume he has never met. Here we have a case of an active duty military officer using government resources to attack a US citizen. This is very sinister.

      I am writing my member of Congress.

      1. Maximilian Forte

        Very interesting! For some reason I believe that might even be a short list, since he posted across various stories here. I will check later this weekend and see if I get a slightly lengthier list.

      2. WTFO

        Not to mention what other sites he may have blogged on, not just during the past couple of weeks, but throughout his current duty assignment. I would just love an IT forensics team to crawl all over his computer and the Pentagon’s network traffic.

      3. Maximilian Forte

        If I counted correctly, you found 15 comments. I have found 27 overall:

        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 7:16pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 7:08pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 6:05pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 1:41pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 12:46pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 9:07am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/11 at 8:53am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/10 at 9:27am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/10 at 9:24am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/10 at 9:07am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/09 at 7:32am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/09 at 7:28am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 9:58pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 9:35pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 1:20pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 12:54pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 12:44pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 12:23pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 12:11pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 10:37am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 10:35am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 9:16am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 8:44am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/04 at 8:04am
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/03 at 2:18pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/02 at 2:13pm
        BOB BATEMAN: Submitted on 2009/03/02 at 1:33pm

        By the way, just look at that list. This is from the man who is now claiming that I “silenced” him and tried to avoid him challenging my ideas. Of course, he is saying that in private, because he has been banned from this blog and has sent four more messages nonetheless (not included in the list above).

        Not only is he a ferocious typist, more prolific than most bots, but I can better appreciate that I am fortunate to have found multiple ways of blocking him — otherwise this blog would have become BOB OCCUPIED TERRITORY.

      4. WTFO

        I make that 22 instances of using a government computer for personal business, including the messages sent during the noon hour, on six different duty days in a 10-day period.

        LTC Bateman is assigned to the Office of the Secretary of Defense’s Office of Net Assessment, which, according to Wikipedia, “operates as an internal think tank for the Department.” They ought to do more thinking and less tanking.

      5. Maximilian Forte

        We can stop Batemania from happening here, but, WTFO, I will make a bet that being a Lieutenant Colonel will provide him with all the protection he needs, as he is “no ordinary grunt.” I would still recommend that you write to your Representative, but I am pretty sure he has been authorized to do what he does, which is a form of PR masked as a purely individual and voluntary effort (as if).

        It certainly puts his demolition effort, re: the reputation of Dudley-Flores, in a different light when we stop to remember that he is first and foremost a Lt. Col. seated at the Pentagon, and second an adjunct lecturer. Yet while he was here, he tried to speak in his capacity as an academic (part-time, non-tenured regardless).

  66. Bob Bateman

    Well, at least I now know that you, at least, see what I type. That evidence, at least, now exists for your readers. As does the fact that you ban free speech on your site. Since your readers now see that you openly posted, “This is from the man who is now claiming that I “silenced” him and tried to avoid him challenging my ideas. Of course, he is saying that in private, because he has been banned from this blog and has sent four more messages nonetheless (not included in the list above).”

    Well Max, I really could not contrive a confession of oppression of free speech or discourse any more clearly than the way you just laid it out for your readers. Well played son. Well played indeed. “He claimed I ‘silenced’ him” and “he has been banned” are wonderfully juxtaposed.

    “OPEN” Anthropology.

    Regards Max. And I apologize for the future. Not really my fault. But I am sorry nonetheless.


    1. Maximilian Forte

      You apologize for the future. It was worth approving your message just so that others can see the veiled threat.

      It is OPEN Anthropology…just no longer open to you, and your kind. You had your say, and became repetitive, and rather obnoxious, especially as you turned some of your comments on this blog into ad hominem attacks toward someone (me) who had been very analytical, even handed, calm, and reasonable with you. But then the military wolf in sheep’s clothing is all ready to pounce, eh Bob?

      Remember, you have a right to free speech. But not on this blog: it is a privilege, and you abused it.

  67. Bob Bateman


    Please pass to your friend, “What The Fuck, Over” (ie, “WTFO”) this query, if you like. (Oh, and you are free to also pass him my personal e-mail. No worries.) Failing that. Send this.

    Mr. WTFO: What part of discussing military doctrine, military theory, military operations, and military interaction with academia, is not “military” in nature and which would therefore be inappropriate during military hours? This would certainly be an interesting survey. I look forward to your citations. Does that mean that when I am reading and writing about military theory while on leave, I’m not really on leave, but am actually “working”?

    If you’d lile to contact me, please feel free to write to me at The Nation, courtesy of Dr. Eric Alterman (or his web avatar), and they’ll pass things on to me. I understand that your politics may make you opposed to dealing with a liberal magazine/site such as my hosts, but your conservative political inclinations are not really at issue here, and I am not denying your right to have them.


    Bob Bateman

  68. Pingback: Lt. Col. Bob Bateman “Apologizes for the Future”? « OPEN ANTHROPOLOGY

  69. Bob Bateman

    Ahhhh Max,

    “Abused” is obviously a subjective opinion. “Repetitve” and “rather obnoxious.” Yes, I believe that you are correct, if these are your opinions on comments, you are entirely in your personal right to ban “obnoxious” and “repetitive” comments, for the greater good of your “OPEN” site. Dissent is bad. Banish it. Disagreement is evil. It must be purged.

    One wonders, of course, if you’ll now post the messages you blocked. (Three or four of those you cite which said, “testing to see if I am blocked.”)

    Free Speech, Open Speech, of course, is entirely up to you to decide. You are the arbiter here, you get to decide when and what people may say. This, after all, is your site and you dictate all that appears. I can only repost this missive, elsewhere.

    And again, Max, truly, I am sorry for your future.

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      This is why the term “pompous ass” was invented — it was with people like Bateman in mind. Besides trying to instruct me on the meaning of “open” as used on my site, in my way, within a very specific context, he constructs a notion of openness that is more appropriate for orifices and acts of sodomy.

      Hey Bob…show me where your PENTAGON will allow me to post 29 of my messages on its website, before you preach, OK?

      There is no more awful hypocrisy, and lunacy, for the dominant to pose like the dissidents, moaning about a lack of free speech among others (where they in fact spoke freely), while practicing secrecy on an everyday basis themselves.

      Bob, why do you make such a fool of yourself?

      1. Bob Bateman


        “Hey Bob…show me where your PENTAGON will allow me to post 29 of my messages on its website, before you preach, OK?”

        When “the Pentagon” has a website with a blog which calls for open posting, you’ll be the first one he calls for your opinions on military tactics, techniques and procedures, as well as National Security issues, I am sure. (The Pentagon is a building Max. It does nothing. It just sits there. Organizations and people have blogs.)

        In the meanwhile, it’s the people at the Combined Arms Center, at Fort Leavenworth, who lead the way with military run blogs, some with comments enabled.

        Feel completely free to post anything you like. Here is a list of those available.

        But you already knew that, didn’t you Max, because other people (specifically Mars) posted a link to one of those blogs, and you read and responded to his comment. So why are you asking me where you can go to speak freely?

        In any event, go right ahead and leave as many comments as you like Max. Free speech and all.

        But, of course, the odds that you’ll post this are low in the extreme, aren’t they? But you did ask where in the military you could speak freely, and now I’ve given you a link to dozens of them. (And…interestingly, it was a site that you’ve carried comments from here, before you wrote that.)

        Ironic, isn’t it? The US military has more dedication to open dialog than you do.

        Bob Bateman

      2. Maximilian Forte

        I’m sorry that you did not understand me, Bob, but then that just repeats the pattern. By the “Pentagon” I thought it was obvious that I was implying the Department of Defense, which does have a website in fact. I do not see it posting any essays or comments of those who are critical of the wars or of U.S. imperialism. One thing that is certain about the U.S. military is that it does not tolerate significant dissent (apart from tactics, techniques, and procedures, as you listed — in other words, first agree with the mission and its goals, and then you can debate how best to get there — that is not dissent, just a difference of opinion). Why don’t you list the names of the generals, Bob, who had to resign first before they could criticize the invasion of Iraq, or who were immediately pushed aside as soon as they sounded critical of Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld and their plans? Why don’t you list the times the DoD has had “blogger roundtables” with Iraq Vets Against the War, or with anti-war protesters? Tell me how many times you have seen delegations of anti-imperialist political organizations being courted for dialogue in the Pentagon?

        If there was so much open dialogue, perhaps you would not have bombed the shit out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and felt the need to stick over 1000 bases across the planet.

        But no, go ahead Bob, and continue to fulfill your duty of presenting romantic illusions of the wonderful U.S. military. And when you get frustrated again, you can return to threats, as part of your wonderfully open form of dialogue.

        I am sorry for your future Bob, because the world will sooner delete you from that future than make a space for you. But then again you knew that, which is why you chose a career with the most violent and destructive institution on earth. You literally make me sick.

        As for the minor blogs you list, I don’t post on them because they are not even remotely of any interest to me, and the subjects and focus of the discussion are not in any way relevant to me. In addition, I personally prefer to write posts, and not wander across the web looking for anywhere to spam with my comments. I have no designs on any other site, my intentions are largely restricted to writing on this site and making sure that, for the record, a wider field of differing perspectives is maintained. But then you have a problem with that too.

      3. Bob Bateman


        You asked where you could post, openly. I showed you. You asked, “Hey Bob…show me where your PENTAGON will allow me to post 29 of my messages on its website, before you preach, OK?”

        I showed you not one, but dozens of Department of Defense websites where you could, “post 29 of my messages.” One of those blogs is written by a 3 star general, indeed the very one who oversees the HTS which you so detest. In short, I answered your question Max and gave you directions to a place and a person that could actually do something about some of your critiques. Now you’re changing the topic. Again.

        When are you going to get it through your head that the Department of Defense does NOT decide where it will go. DoD doesn’t choose where it will be sent, who it will help or who it will fight.

        Max, I understand that you have severe problems with US foreign policy. And that’s just fine. My wife was protesting the (then coming) war in Iraq before it even started. So I am entirely comfortable with your disputes over American foreign policy. There are large chunks of it that I’m not happy with either. But that’s different than being mad at the State Department (as an institution) for executing the directives they’ve been given.

        One of the things I’ve been trying to show you, perhaps inexpertly, is how to register your disagreements more precisely.

        Say, for example, in the case of that out-of-control Sergeant who was just flat-out messing up. He WAS, as you correctly pointed out, essentially making things worse, not better, with his tirade. But you took it and then tried to extrapolate from it, and in doing so made too many assumptions for the argument to stand up.

        I can help show you, or point you in directions where you can learn for yourself, some things about the military which would make your critiques and arguments better. More precise. More accurate. They would still be critiques. They might even still be scathing and embarrassing-to-the-US-military critiques (in fact, they’re likely to be more so, because you would be listened to by more people, because you would know what you were talking about, military-wise). I’m not trying to change your mind on anything Max. That’s politics, and more to the point, it’s of little interest to me. It’s the inaccuracy that I’m trying to resolve.

        So, for example, you hate the HTS. Fine. That’s internal-to-the-military, so it’s something the military could do something about. Explain *why* the HTS is bad ju-ju. Your argument might be moral. It might be functional. It might be economic. Any of those is a valid argument. But conflating HTS with US foreign policy doesn’t make sense. It’s illogical.

        Along the same lines you can critique the nature of the US educational system. The US military’s educational system. Or US military Tactics/Techniques/Procedures that allowed that dumb sergeant to be in that place and talking like that. That TOO would be a valid critique on a whole bunch of levels. And your critique could actually create change, if you do it well and reach people. But again, conflating one sergeant with the course and direction of US foreign policy is just plain silly. It is like blaming the tyre when a driver smashes his car into a wall because he was driving drunk.

        Oh, and I do apologize (and no, I don’t care if you post this or not) about that crack about your monograph. I had seen your CV, and saw all sorts of “pending publication” entries, and several edited works, but I had missed your University of Florida published monograph. That was imprecise of me.

        One last thing for now. You ask about dialog with the IVAW and blogging roundtables, etc. That’s actually not a bad idea. You should advocate that. For my part, I go out of my way to bring in Al Jazeera. (Giving interviews and the like to their reporters.) But I am just one LTC, so I don’t have a lot of reach. They’re not an anti-war group, to be sure, but they are relevent. But the idea of “the Pentagon” (another imprecision I’d like to help you with) sitting down with anti-war protestors, that again is not logical. “The Pentagon” can no more stop a war than it can start one. The correct locus of power is, and I know you hate this, with the civilians in the White House and Congress. It’s just become a silly fashion to “protest the Pentagon”…as though that would have an effect. It’s like the cop arresting the tyre instead of the drunk who smashed into the wall. Sure, there’s symbolism there, but damned little utility.

        So there you go Max. You can continue to inefficiently blame the tyre. You can, as Xerxes did, order the Hellespont to be given 300 lashes and a pair of manacles to be thrown in to it as well, or you can open your mind to the idea that there might be more effective ways to put forward your criticisms. I’m not trying to stop the criticisms, I’m only trying to belay the inaccuracies.

        You might start here, one of my essays on why we don’t fire generals who screw up in combat anymore. (As a friend of mine once wrote, a private is more likely to be court-martialled for losing his weapon than a general is for losing a battle.)

        I’d also be more than happy to talk to you about my old boss General Shinseki, as well as the others who participated (Shinseki did not) in the “Revolt of the Generals.” The sad fact is that only one of them “resigned” more-or-less in protest. Shinseki was, however, marginalized when he ran afoul of Rumsfeld and several of those who were below him. Someday that episode is definitely going in one of my books. I only wish that more had done so. But to understand *why*, you need to know more about the military itself and the different cultures extant in the different services.

        Bob Bateman

  70. Mars Ultor

    We have seen evidence of an Army propaganda campaign against Dr. Dudley-Flores, in which LTC Bateman, blogging from his Pentagon office during duty hours, figures prominently. However, there have been other participants, such as “Concerned” at Ft. Leavenworth. Also, consider the strange case of Wellington Charles, PhD (Cultural Anthropology), who attacked Dr. Dudley-Flores out of the blue on “Military Review’s” blog:

    Marilyn “Stryker” Dudley-Flores, PhD, your reputation precedes you. You were able to influence senior federal executives but you weren’t able to influence your team, correct? Did you ever wonder why you, the self proclaimed asset, weren’t able to address the CDR of the 101st? An ounce of humility perhaps? Or not. To your own admittance you failed as an academic; what about as a cultural advisor to an Infantry Division? Maybe a little bit of existentialist acceptance of responsibility would be in order instead of lighting up the “blame thrower.” Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back.

    Why this ad hominem attack on Dr. Dudley-Flores in that venue? She has no obvious connection to “Military Review,” other than she was a member of a program about which MAJ Ben Connable wrote an article. Does anyone know of a Dr. Wellington Charles? His reputation does NOT precede him.

    Perhaps now we can return to the discussion we were having before LTC Bateman detonated his weapon of mass distraction: the dysfunctionality of the HTS program in general and how this played out in the case of Dr, Dudley-Flores specifically. And as Max pointed out, regardless of her qualifications as a social scientist, she had a right to expect the Army (if not the HTS program, then the 101st Airborne) to protect her from the domestic enemies among whom she found herself.

  71. Maximilian Forte

    Thanks Mars, and no, I personally have never heard of anyone called “Wellington Charles,” although there was a Charles Wellington Furlong who was both an explorer, war correspondent, and army officer. The first has no reputation whatsoever, and the second has been dead for a long time.

    If Dr. Dudley-Flores was this horrendous person that some people make her out to be…why did HTS hire her? It’s amazing how some think they can preserve the program by destroying people inside it, or who had joined it. Another such episode is unfolding right now in fact — see:

  72. Maximilian Forte

    Bob, as usual, I don’t have the time to respond to everything above. I do, however, include the person in charge of DoD, the Secretary of Defense, a cabinet position, as part of the DoD. As I use “Pentagon” and DoD interchangeably, as do many writers, I do not see the need to create a false dichotomy between one arm of the state and an agent of the state. You or others may not like to hear people condemn U.S. officers or troops for their actions in the field, but I view them as adults who are responsible for their actions and decisions, starting with the decision to voluntarily enlist, and therefore ultimately no one is beyond criticism for joining a war machine just because they personally don’t get to call the shots. The tire and drunk driver analogy therefore does not work, unless you are willing to change it so that the tire has a brain and agency; I am not sure that most people who made conscious decisions to join the military would happily equate themselves to a mere rubber tire.

    Also, when it comes to my CV, please let it go. You constantly mangle it. Anyone can read my CV for themselves and judge your statements in comparison. It is here, and here (Both are also out dated, as I have more to add.)

    A minority of what appears are chapters pending, alright? I also have more than one book, sorry to disappoint you, it is two books plus one edited volume, with two more edited volumes under contract. As for one of the books you mentioned in another message, that you said you could not find on Amazon (as if it were not listed there, presumably too marginal), you even got that wrong:

    My edited volume is also there at:

    and my earliest book, is at:

    This took me about 10 seconds to find, and you claimed to have found nothing.

    Feel free to make an issue of my CV like you tried with Dudley-Flores (I would not be surprised if you experienced some blowback on that one), it would be my pleasure. Then we will do the same with yours — given, for example, that you claim to have academic publications and yet all I see are military publications…and you can huff and you can puff hoping to blow this house down, but you won’t find more than a handful of academics who would be prepared to accept writing by the military for the military to be academic, by definition.

  73. Bob Bateman


    I said I was *sorry* about the crack about your monograph. I was not making another crack, I was being up-front and saying I screwed up and I missed it. I’ll say it again, “I screwed up, I missed it.” Not kidding here, and not sniping.

    I think that you might be on to something about the HTS management, and in particular the hiring process. I don’t know about the Sturgis guy at all, but as I noted with the D-F part (and I still haven’t gotten to the military side of her bio from her website), there’s plenty there that’s screwy. Which implies, as you note, that there is something screwy with HTS and who/how they hire. Or perhaps more specifically (and I don’t know if this is the right tree to bark up) how BAE did the hiring when they had the contract. D-F alone suggests that all was not well on that count. But then, BAE had a profit motive, didn’t they? That sometimes (often?) screws things up.

    It would be precise, and accurate, when you mean the SecDef to say that. Criticism of him is entirely valid as a topic. (For you. That’s one part of my First Amendment rights I give up as an officer. I cannot criticize any elected official from governor on up, nor any cabinet level political appointee. I can criticize their IDEAS, but not them. FWIW, enlisted men are not subject to this law. They can say what they want.) He certainly interacts directly with the President, and so is a valid point to focus upon.

    When you are criticizing “The Pentagon” for some fouled up policy, I recommend referring to the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, or “OSD Policy” or the ultimate acronym, USD(P). They are the ones responsible for how we execute policy as handed down from the White House. (They are also all civilians, and mostly political appointees put in place by whatever party is in power.)

    But when you are criticizing something, some specific WAY that something has been done, then I suggest you nail the specific service which is screwing the pooch. Obviously, of late, this has been the Army more often than not. But it has been other services at other times. The Republicans, for example, tend to favor the USAF and theories that come out of the USAF, such as “Shock and Awe”, that excreable idea that you can drop bombs and magic happens and people are suddenly going to see things your way, and the war is over antiseptically. That came out of the Air Force. (And, to a lesser degree, the Navy.) The Army, on the other hand, has had some pretty stupid ideas about how to behave inside Iraq/Afghanistan, and you’d be right to criticize Army leadership for some of their dumb ideas.

    But by the same token, it’s imprecise (and marks you down in many people’s opinions as somebody without the requisite knowledge) to criticize “the Pentagon” for something stupid that the Army did, because it wasn’t “the Pentagon”‘s fault. So, for example, if you hated “shock and awe” as an idea, blame the USAF, or the civilian political leadership of OSD (the Secdef, etc), but don’t say “the Pentagon” because that would include the Army and the Marines, both of whom registered their resistance to the whole thing. (Those generals, in the “Revolt of the Generals” Max? Notice that they were ALL Army and USMC generals? Not USN Admirals or USAF Generals? It’s because the latter two branches are much more technology focused. They believe ‘war’ is about bombing and hitting the right targets. Army and USMC thinking is nearly the opposite. We focus on people.

    I still think that I am right about Foucault. He is the appropriate source for talking about power structures and relationships. But no, of course he does not speak about colonialism or post-colonialism at all. But I wasn’t saying that he did. Anyway, I’m sitting in the G-town library right now, so I’ll look up your Fanon fellow and see what I think about that.

    Bob Bateman

    1. Maximilian Forte

      I am almost running out the door, all I really caught was the last sentence: you can also check the front page of this blog, where I posted one of the lengthy chapters from one of his books.

    2. Maximilian Forte

      Alright, sorry, having scanned it better now, I can see that there are several points, in this message and your previous ones today, that I am in agreement with, or where I see that your points are valid. If the blog format would have allowed it, I would place simple check marks next to each statement. Unfortunately, I really am pressed to leave right now, so more later perhaps.

  74. Bob Bateman

    We have time Max. Sadly, for all of us, neither your vision nor mine, of human conflict/domination is likely to end anytime soon.

    Respond at your convenience.

    You might have been interested in my class’s debate/discussion about torture tonight. Start point: Algeires and the Casbah. I think, I hope, and if I believed in a god I’d pray, that by the end of it they “got it.” The problem with the socratic method, of course, is that you can’t demand understanding.

    Bob Bateman

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  77. George A. Sturgis

    I really don’t know what you are trying to prove here. You are mixing facts with opinions in this entire article. Knowing Dr. Sturgis personally, he is a well read and educated man having taught at Harvard and dedicating his life to God by comforting those in their time of need. He would still not have a job if what you are saying is true. Also, it is standard protocol that every person being sent oversees is thoroughly checked by doctors prior to and returning from deployment. Saying this man has any mental health issues is ridiculous, and implying that those who do have mental health issues are inadequate at performing their duties or responsibilities is also ridiculous. Please get your facts straight before you slander a person who is supporting and fighting for our freedom.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      While I think you are addressing John Stanton, let me ask you a question about something more important than any one person, regarding your final words specifically: How is any American in Afghanistan “fighting for our freedom”? Was the U.S. attacked by the Taliban? Did the Taliban invade the U.S.? Is any part of the U.S. under Taliban occupation? Where exactly do you get these notions that any time an American overseas kills, that it’s for your “freedom”? If so, your “freedom” is pretty expensive, with the price paid by others. And what “freedom” is it that you really have anyway?

      However, none of this has anything to do with “freedom” of course — both you and I know that — you just threw that line in there to win silence.

      What would have been more interesting is if you had any details to counter what you say is slander. No one has stood up for Milan Sturgis thus far, so having a different perspective would have been at least interesting.

  78. Mike the Cat

    Well if a Sturgis won’t stick up for a Sturgis, who will? SOCK PUPPET, SOCK PUPPET!

    One of the best lines in Tom Hanks’ latest film, “Angels and Demon,” is, “Be careful… these are men of God.”

  79. Mike the Cat


    Sure has been quite around here lately without Bottlecap Bob shooting his mouth off, his foot off, his dick off, his career off…. Apologizing for the future? He ought to be worried about his.

  80. Hank

    Mike the Cat,

    You mean Bob Bateman, the guy who likes to debunk other people’s exaggerated claims? I just followed up on that Wikipedia article about him that you mentioned several months ago. Just as you said, he’s a legend in his own mind! Anyone who’s interested enough can look at the editing history of Bottlecap Bob’s edifice to his megalomania:

    26 March 2008: ‘On Carnage and Culture: removing a lot of the discussion on Carnage and Culture — this can’t be the most important thing Bateman ever did, and if it is, he probably doesn’t rate a wiki entry.’

    12 June 2008: ‘Restoring earlier edit of “Carnage and Culture” section. Agree that if this book review is a key point in Bateman’s career, the entire article be deleted for irrelevance.’

    10 July 2008: ‘need a reliable source for such a claim’

    21 August 2008: ‘Whole entry should be deleted. Not significant.’

    Talk about a guy living in a glass house!

  81. Mike the Cat

    How’s it hangin’, Hank?

    The debunker is bunkum!!! Bunkum Bob, Bottlecap Bob… both work for me! But you missed a late entry:

    “This article is a self-erected monument. It is insignificant, and it ought to be deleted.”

    You also didn’t mention the numerous “possible vandalism” notations on the Bateman Monument. I have a virtual can of spray paint around here somewhere… what do you say we have a tagging party!

  82. Mike the Cat

    A week ago, someone left another comment on Master Bateman’s Wikipedia article:

    ‘Concur with Garryowen. Bateman is a poser, his books (about the “Garryowen” regimant) are a sham, and I’ve tried to delete this page before but not succeeded.’

    Get the feeling that his 15 minutes are about to expire?

  83. Queen Judea

    In answer to Hank, it may be, that as Jude Law’s character, Gigolo Joe, says in Spielberg’s AI, Bateman’s in “big trouble.”

    1. Queen Judea

      You know, I’m curious to know, since the American Sociology Association has a section-in-formation concerning body image, and this is a topic of legitimate research, how many HTS women were mocked in the war zone because of their body image? It seems to me that I saw a story on an HTS woman in Iraq who was told she could be a model if she would just lose some weight. Where did I see that? Is there some kind of Barbie doll fetish going on overseas out of sight of the American public?

      As they say, it’s not over till the fat lady sings.

  84. Mike the Cat

    See: “A Waist Is a Terrible Thing to Mind”:

    These testosterone-poisoned little soldier boys need to stop dreaming that every woman needs to look like a Barbie doll for them to play with. We don’t. We are what we are. Deal with it. Your choice, guys, but if you won’t support and defend, screw it, we’ll do it ourselves.

    1. Maximilian Forte

      I agree, the not-so-subtle body image issues that have been injected into this discussion are appalling. Keep in mind that this story appeared soon after the announced death of Paula Loyd. Loyd, the good, golden girl, presented by some as a Darryl Hannah look alike, versus the bad woman, the trouble maker with a brain, Dudley-Flores, over sized, etc. It is nauseating to see this kind of thinking perpetuated. The irony of course is that it is the right hand of HTS that is slapping the left face of HTS, this battle is entirely intramural even if played out in public.

  85. Liz Scarborough

    The section-in-formation of the American Sociological Association known as the Sociology of the Body and Embodiment is interested in this kind of stuff. Hook up with them through Salvador Vidal-Ortiz at

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  87. Dr. Marilyn Dudley-Flores

    I’ve been a little busy around the hacienda and haven’t been keeping up with the latest bashing of HTS commentators by this or that blogger. But, lo, what do we have here? Another sock puppet on the digital fortress wall? Or, a wannabe hiding behind an alias? Long after this discussion has fallen silent, NV appears under the mask of cyber-hosiery. About John Stanton, he claims, “Those who choose to view him as a factual and honest ‘journalist’ may be led astray.” Let me say right here and now that anyone who puts any stock in NV’s ramblings will most assuredly be led astray!

    NV reintroduces the old “first Infantry woman” theme, something I never asserted at any time anywhere. This is disinformation and is a theme sure to enflame those Infantrymen — that percent who can’t stand the sight of a woman wearing the blue cord by circumstance of her soldierly work – so enflamed that they want to lynch each and every one of those females with their own shoulder ropes. “Integrating Women Into the Infantry,” by Army CPT Adam N. Wojack over must surely make such cult-mongers see Infantry blue.

    Most of what NV writes is largely irrelevant mumbo-jumbo and baseless rambling about HTS trainee behaviors, using just enough key words like BAE, OPSEC, and BMI and seeming to explain HTS’ers hiring arrangements to make readers external to HTS think that he/she must know what she/he is talking about. It’s b.s.

    Also b.s., as well as specious, is his train of thought that says “Because Dudley-Flores did not press a lawsuit for it that sex harassment must not have happened.” Where is he or she getting his or her info on my legal pursuits? And, anyway, what about the complaints from all the HTAT women about the sexual harassment to various authorities? Ought that not carry as much weight as diagnostic of the deed as complaining to lawyers?

    Equally disinformational is his/her “leak” that I was outside the 40% Body Mass Index. I think what NV means to accuse is that I was over it. I was not, in fact. I was well under it as defined by the National Institutes of Health and other authorities – like Army medical screeners. I was particular to make sure that I was. The related disinformational theme that I could not wear my Army gear is also b.s. I was appropriately fitted for my gear and wore it just fine, and there are sworn eyewitness statements to that fact.

    But, probably the most sadly disinformational thing that NV writes is that Dudley-Flores violated OPSEC. That stands for “operational security.” Did I? And, what was that and how did I do it? I see a lot of innuendo in NV’s comments about that, but nothing solid that lets me know that NV knows enough to make a solid accusation. I did not, in fact, violate any OPSEC. If I did, I would not just have been fired, I would have been brought up on charges for running afoul of General Orders.

    There’s a run in your stocking, NV.

  88. Roger Neuman

    Did you ever hear such an arrogant condescending person as this Bob Bateman? I would be willing to bet that the story of Bob’s life would make good reading. Anyone interested in researching his life?

    1. Dr. Marilyn Dudley-Flores

      Yes, Roger, LTC Bob Bateman, as depicted over the Internet, would be an interesting research project for someone so inclined. Here are some leads since last my supporters and I delved into his background.

      He had his own domain name

      He had a website.

      He had a longish Wikipedia article on himself — which he authored.

      Bateman has made other inroads on Wikipedia. He tried to revise the history of No Gun Ri to whitewash it. The revision history for that article shed a good bit of light on that activity. The author (murdoch) of the Wikipedia article on the No Gun Ri incident (Korean War) posted a complaint on 15 July 2005 that someone was continually going into his article online and trying to revise the history of a well-documented event. He found the IP address of the person doing it.

      Two days earlier, that same someone created the Wikipedia article on Robert Bateman using the same IP address (see the bottom of the revision history on the Wikipedia article “Robert Bateman [historian]”).

      Currently, there are still references to Robert Bateman in the No Gun Ri Wikipedia entry, but they are no longer links to the Wikipedia article about him.

      Sean McFate was a Facebook friend of LTC Robert Bateman.

      Shortly after I FOIPA’ed his blog transmissions that referred to me out of his Pentagon computer and verified the details already discovered over this page, Bateman’s website disappeared.

      I was surprised today to see that Bateman’s Wikipedia entry on himself has been deleted. It was entertaining reading. It introduced me to the wonderful world of “fake veteran hunting” by Army Rangers and others, which as a daughter of the South reminded me so much of the Ku Klux Klan.

      So, it would seem that LTC Bateman is being relegated to the obscurity that he deserves. He would make a great targeting exercise for newbie HTS’ers.

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